AoR 148: Targeted Cheatgrass Grazing Research with Sheep -- Kelly Hopping & Riley Kowitz

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>> Welcome to the Art of Range, a podcast focused on rangelands and the people who manage them. I'm your host, Tip Hudson, range and livestock specialist with Washington State University Extension. The goal of this podcast is education and conservation through conversation. Find us online at artofrange.com.

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Welcome back to the Art of Range. This episode is part of the collaboration between the Art of Range podcast and Idaho's Life on the Range story series. We have joining us today Steve Stuebner, the writer and producer of the Life on the Range series. Kelly Hopping, who is with Boise State University as a professor of human and environmental systems. And Riley Kowitz, an Idaho sheep rancher, who's been working together on this project that we're going to talk about. These fine folk were involved in a great story that was just published at Life on the Range. The story and the accompanying video are about a research project led by Kelly, to get into the question of whether a targeted grazing with sheep can reduce cheatgrass levels in the Sawtooth National Forest in Central Idaho, near Sun Valley. Kelly is finishing up the third year of the research study, and they now have enough results to talk about it. Steve, Kelly, and Riley, welcome. I'm thrilled to be visiting with you.

>> Thank you.

>> Yeah, thank you.

>> Thanks for having us.

>> Maybe we'll start here. Steve, as usual, you were involved in setting the scene for the short film that you all did. But maybe we'll take a few minutes here for you to set the scene for this audio retelling of the story. And I'll mention that I really do want listeners to go watch the video. As I was watching the video, I'm seeing sheep flow over the landscape in drone footage like a flock of birds. And I half expected to hear a British narrator's voice coming in, like it's a PBS nature film. It's really good stuff. But it would be dangerous for me to try to put on that British accent. So, Steve, what is the setting of this story? And why did you gravitate toward it?

>> Yeah, well, the setting is just west of Hailey, Idaho, which is very close to Sun Valley. And Kelly comes to the Idaho Rangeland Resources Commission board meetings on a regular basis, and had been talking about her project. And it sounded very interesting to us and novel and innovative, because the stories we've done so far about targeted grazing on cheatgrass focused on cattle. And they weren't research projects. They were more just actual projects with producers in coordination with the BLM in Idaho. So, anyway, it just sounded like really a fresh topic to us. And so I got together with Kelly last fall out on the, in the field with her grad students. And we hiked up the mountain, and she had already arranged with Riley and his herders to bring the sheep over the mountain onto three different research plots. And so it's a bright, sunny morning. And we walked up the mountain maybe 30 minutes. And we got to a point where we can see a saddle. And literally the mountain was moving with sheep. And Kelly was excited to see it. And Renee Kaylor from the Sawtooth National Forest also was excited to see the sheep, because basically they were exactly over the top of three different research plots. So, if you're a science geek, you're /STOEBGD. And the sheep were right where they wanted them. And then they would be able to get the field data later. But, anyway, that's kind of the setting last fall. And then ultimately Kelly's doing the research to see whether the sheep well reduced cheatgrass levels, and whether they might do that better during the spring grazing season or the fall grazing season.

>> Yeah, I have all kinds of questions about that, bother with the efficacy of targeted grazing, but then also the independent question of whether sheep, as a specific method for targeted grazing, are different, and how they're different. I do expect they're different. And I've got a few observations that I'm excited about in addition to your story. Kelly, why don't we come back to you? How did you, how did you get into this research project?

>> Yeah, so Steve mentioned Renee Kaylor. She was a range specialist on the Sawtooth National Forest. And I had met her, and I had just moved to Idaho, and I was interested in doing research with sheep. And so we spent a lot of time hiking, and she would take me out to where the sheep bands were, and we would observe what was going on and talk a lot about what her needs were to be able to improve their management. And what rose to the surface was that cheatgrass was a huge management problem for them. And so we thought that it would be interesting to see if we could use sheep to try to target the cheatgrass. And so as Steve said, there's more research done with cattle on cheatgrass grazing, but on the Sawtooth National Forest, those areas are permitted for sheep. And it's more high elevation, kind of rugged terrain, where there aren't cattle there currently, and there are sheep. And so that was really the start of it was to see if we could use the sheep to do this. And there were great [inaudible] willing to work with us on it. So, that's how we got started.

>> Yeah, and so the specific research area, how was that selected?

>> Well, we started with identifying the allotments that the Forest Service felt like had the worst cheatgrass invasion that they were dealing with. And then from there, we used some satellite imagery that shows where there's cheatgrass on the landscape, and it updates every couple weeks in the spring and the summer. And so we used the current snapshot of where the cheatgrass was. And then we did a lot of hiking to find places that met the Forest Service requirements of where we were allowed to locate the plots. And then we had to think about the sheep would need to have access to water every day. And so just thinking about where to locate it from the perspective of the Forest Service needs, the sheep needs, in areas with high cheatgrass invasion that were also accessible enough to the research team, because we're going out there and spending a lot of time in the plots, whether it's with the sheep or doing our measurements afterward. And so, yeah, we selected 16 plots in each of the allotments working in two allotments, so we have a total of 32 plots spread out across that landscape.

>> Yeah, I want to, I want to go to Riley. Riley, what was your initial thought when this got proposed to you? Because oftentimes, we think up big ideas that ought to work. But applying them in the real world is sometimes not quite as simple. And, of course, one of the potential problems with targeted grazing is that there can be, it can be a little bit tough on the animals if you're trying to push them to places where they don't want to go. And can be tough on people. What was your reaction?

>> Yeah, I was, I was pretty onboard, try something new. We have a lot of cheatgrass, and it kind of takes over from all our native grasses that are better, better feed for the sheep, so it was, it was kind of a win win for me. And from what I've seen over the years, the sheep really do help combat the cheatgrass and help bring back some of the native species. So, it was a pretty good idea, from my standpoint.

>> Did it require you to graze at a different time than you'd normally have animals out there?

>> Yeah, we had to come a little earlier in the spring, and we stayed a little later in the fall. And the spring is the worst as far as timing, is getting the sheep there, because my sheep were down on desert, desert ground, in the springtime, and so we're not in the area, so it was just a little bit of a push to get them there on time, to line up with the cheatgrass stuff. But it's worked out so far.

>> Good. Kelly, how was the study set up? And then what have you been finding?

>> Well, we set up the 32 plots. And the way we set it up is to have fall targeted grazing, spring targeted grazing, a combination of fall and spring, where the sheep return to those plots in both of those seasons to do that more intense grazing treatment. And then we're using the summer grazing as the kind of reference conditions, since there are already sheep grazing in that area, we decided that was the more appropriate baseline. And so in that area, something that they call onceover grazing is what they aim for in the summer, where the intention is for sheep to not pass over the same area twice, and they are pretty dispersed, and not necessarily covering every square inch of ground. And so we have an area that the sheep pass through in the summer the way they normally would in a much lighter way. In the first year of doing all this, the sheep missed some of the targeted grazing plots, just because they're, for various reasons of logistics or not able to locate where they were the first go around. And that was actually a really happy accident where it gave us a sort of true no grazing reference point. And we found that that was not different from the summer light grazing, when it came to the cheatgrass effects. And so we can say with some confidence that our sort of baseline of summer grazing is a good reference point to see how we're shifting the impacts on the plants and soils relative to that when we do the more intense spring and fall grazing. So, anyway, we have [inaudible] when the sheep are coming. But we also started collecting data from all the plots in 2022, before we changed anything about the grazing, so that we also have that sort of business as usual baseline year to see how the things start diverging after that, once we start changing the timing and intensity. So, we have those four different treatments; the spring, fall, spring and fall, compared to summer. And those are replicated with four plots per allotment across two allotments. And so the sheep just sort of work their way through the seasons. They hit the spring plots first to make it on the allotment. And then they continue onto the summer. And then they stay long enough to graze the fall plots at the end. And then we're out there monitoring along with the herders when they're physically in the plots and checking and deciding when it's time to move on and recording, you know, what we're observing. But our really intense data collection comes in the summer, where we're out there in July with a big crew, measuring the plant species and different soil properties that we're interested in how they're affected by the treatments.

>> Yeah. How did you decide how long to keep animals in a given area? Was that sort of some set times, or leave it up to the determination of the person who's managing the sheep in that location when they've grazed it down to some, you know, I guess subjective, objective.

>> Yeah, that's been a big, a big part of the project, is figuring out, when is enough, and when is too much, and the delicate balance. And so one thing that's been really wonderful about working with sheep is that they have the herders with them all the time, and so we're able to collaborate with them on bringing the sheep exactly where we want them. So, in contrast to a situation where maybe you would have a big pasture with a fence around it, and you just leave the animals there for a certain amount of time, and you kind of know your stocking rate, if you have this many animals for this area for this much time, it can contrast, we're really able to concentrate them where the herders bring them and can, they're just amazingly good at putting them right in a plot. And so there's no fences, but we put a stake with some pink flagging tape off the top so you can see it fluttering in the distance. And the herders direct the sheep in toward those flags. And then they can hold them there for a little bit. But the sheep aren't staying, even for that long, in any given plot. And then they're moving on to either get water or to rest for the afternoon, or heading back up high to sleep at night. And so we get this kind of pattern where they're coming through, and then continuing on, and then making another pass where they come back through again. And so we've, and this is really in collaboration with Riley, thinking about how to do it, in a way where we would minimize undesired impacts of the sheep. So, instead of trying to hold them in one spot for as long as possible, they just kind of flow through the area, and then come back, usually two or three times. And so it takes about between one and three days to get the number of passes through a plot that we feel like we're achieving as much as we can before we start to tip over into too much soil disturbance or too much grazing on plants if the Forest Service would rather that we not hit as heavily. So, it's more about like watching for not creating too much disturbance. And I think that we're achieving that better with this sort of flowing through the plots repeatedly as opposed to holding them there for a set amount of time. And then also it gives the sheep the opportunity to be eating what they want for the rest of the day. So, we haven't started to have any concerns about the body condition or anything by doing it this way, because we're not just holding them on cheatgrass for days at a time.

>> Yeah. Riley, what were your observations about how the sheep handled it, and how the herders implemented it, and what the results were?

>> From my perspective, the herders have done a really good job, as far as getting to where they need to go. It was a little struggle the first year, because in normal circumstances, you know, the herders feed a whole cannon, and not necessarily a specific spot. So, that was a little wrinkle we had to get ironed out. But they've done a good job as far as getting them there. And like Kelly mentioned, being able to flow through and continue, continue grazing on down through the canyons later in the day or in the mornings, has not hurt the sheep. They've, as far as body condition, and so it's gone fairly well from what I've seen.

>> Enough that you think you could continue it?

>> Oh, yes, yes. There's no reason without the right management and the right collaboration between Forest Service and Kelly or whoever is involved, to be able to successfully implement targeted grazing.

>> Yeah, yeah. What was the Forest Service response so far?

>> I think they've been, from what I've seen, they've been onboard. I think they know they kind of have a cheatgrass problem or invasive weed problem, and they're exploring and looking for new ideas on how to control it without having to spray the whole mountainside.

>> You were going to say something, Kelly?

>> Oh, I was just going to say that, yes, I agree with Riley, they've been really supportive, and it's been really nice working with them on it.

>> Yeah, and one other thing, Tip, you might, I'd say the Sun Valley area is probably the most environmentally sensitive area to do any kind of grazing in the State of Idaho. So, you know, important to use natural methods like this, probably far preferred by locals versus, you know, any kind of chemical treatments and what not.

>> Right, right. And most of the regular podcast audience is more familiar with cheatgrass than they would like to be, but I think it's helpful sometimes to review these things and ask the obvious question. And, of course, everyone's got a different perspective. So, I'm interested in your take on this. Kelly, maybe give us some background on cheatgrass. If you're giving the elevator speech to somebody who's a resident of Sun Valley and wants to know, why is it necessary to make an attempt to control cheatgrass, what would you say?

>> Yeah, cheatgrass is considered an invasive species here, so it was brought in from Eastern Europe over a hundred years ago, and has spread throughout the West pretty aggressively. And now at a really unprecedented rate is taking over, especially our sagebrush steppe ecosystems, where it really flourishes after fires, and perpetuates fires by burning really well, and then the first thing to come back. And so as we have more wildfire, then we get more cheatgrass in this vicious cycle. And cheatgrass isn't, it's not as palatable to wildlife. It's not as good of forage for livestock as the native species. It just doesn't provide the habitat. It tends to outcompete the native plants. It's really good at basically sucking up nutrients from the soil and getting to them before the native plants can. And so once it's established, it's just really pernicious the way that it sticks around. And because of the way that it perpetuates the wildfire cycle and causes places to burn more frequently than they would otherwise, it's just, it's bad for all of us here in the West having to deal with the threat and impact of fire. And then, yeah, and we lose our native species and ecosystems. And so it's just, yeah, it's a tough one.

>> Yeah, and there's numerous factors there involved in the fire risk. And I think maybe sometimes this is not quite so obvious to people. But it's not just that cheatgrass when it dries out is flammable. It's that that when it displaces native species, dramatically increases the window of flammability, where you've now say it dries out and turns purple the first of May, now you've got a fire season, or at least potential fire season conditions that extend from the first of May until whenever you get fall rain. Where the natives will stay greener for longer by virtue of having deeper root systems that access water further down this whole profile. So, you've got continuity of fuel with cheatgrass, you know, where the form, or the structure of the plant community has changed. You've got the lengthened period of high fire risk because it's so dry for so long. And just the fact that it lights off pretty easily.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> How far up does it go? What elevation were you guys doing this research in? And how far up does the cheatgrass go?

>> So, our plots are all located between about 6,500 feet, and 8,000 feet in elevation. And not sure how much higher the cheatgrass goes than that, but it's higher than I think we typically think of. And then it's in much more steep terrain than I think we often think of it being. And there's been other research showing that it is across the West moving up in elevation, as the climate changes and it continues to be suitable higher and higher for it to keep going up in elevation. So, I think looking in these higher places where we don't maybe necessarily think of it is another contribution that we can make with this work.

>> Yeah, so the contribution the sheep can make, that's not easy terrain for anything else to get around on. Again, people should go look at the video. But this is the kind of terrain that you would not, you would have a lot of difficulty getting [inaudible] to be very thorough about the job, I think.

>> Yeah, definitely.

>> One other thing to paint the picture, I think, Tip, is just that, Kelly, I can't remember exactly, but I think the cheatgrass infestation levels in that area were, what, 25% or less, roughly, was that about right?

>> No, so when we, the cheatgrass levels vary from year to year, just depending on what the weather is doing. But in 2022, when we set up the plots, our plots, on average, had over 60% cheatgrass cover. And so they're really highly invaded. So, it was, yeah, it was a big cheatgrass year. And then it changes a bit from year to year, but it stayed, yeah, consistently over, I would say, about 20% on average, and kind of goes up and down, depending on how much rainfall there's been.

>> Okay, but I just wanted, yeah, for the audience to understand, it's not a model culture of cheatgrass by any means. And there are a lot of other plants growing in the area, and shrubs.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And one of cheatgrass's strategies is to fill if in these interspaces between other plants, like perennial bunchgrass plants and shrubs. So, how, are you doing any kind of measurements to determine how that changes the relative risk of fire? How is the cheatgrass reduction reducing fire risk?

>> Yeah, we are definitely looking at that. So, one of the collaborators on the project is Dr. April Hewitt. And so she's taken the lead on that. And so what we've found so far is that the targeted grazing treatments are reducing, so you're talking about how the cheatgrass kind of closes in the canopy between the native plants and the targeted grazing is opening that back up and increasing the gaps in the canopy, which is something that we want to see in the system to reduce the speed with which a fire would move through it, and that kind of thing. But so far with the work that April has done on it, she has found that, so so far she's analyzed like the first year of grazing data. And that wasn't enough to substantially say, oh, a fire, the fire rescue is completely different in the system as a result of the grazing, because we're not trying to do a fuels reduction treatment, so we're not out there just like trying to mow down all the plants and create a firebreak or something like that. So, she will be looking soon at this most recent year of data that we've collected to see if after another year where we got even more of the gaps in the canopy, is that going to start to add up to fire behaving differently in the system. So, the jury is a little bit out on those results, but we're not, we're not trying to, like the fuels reduction isn't the primary goal of the way we're doing the treatments. It's to reduce the cheatgrass. And hopefully if we can sustain the cheatgrass reduction, it will add up to a change in how a fire would behave, and hopefully be a beneficial outcome for these systems, and for our outlook for the potential to reduce fire in these landscapes.

>> I had a riding instructor one time that said, it's important to stay low on the ladder of abstraction. And I'm notoriously prone to stay high on abstraction. So, I want to get back down to the ground level here. Riley, I know a little bit about putting GPS colors on cattle, but I don't have much experience with sheep. What's it like putting colors on sheep? Is this like coloring a cat?

>> No, it's not too bad. If you get the sheep, if you get the sheep in a good area where they can't spread out too far, and you can kind of keep them bunched up, and you just grab them with the sheep hook and keep going, it's really not too bad.

>> Oh, Riley was a master at catching the ewes with his little hook. You could grab the hoof. And then the grad students are there ready to put the collar on, around the ewe's necks. And I thought it went incredibly fast and smooth. How many ewes did you color?

>> Twenty. Is that correct, Kelly?

>> Yeah, we do 20 on each band.

>> Oh, yeah. And what percentage of the band was that?

>> Oh, I don't know what it is percentage, percentage wise, it's like 1%, half a percent.

>> Okay.

>> Is what?

>> It's 2%.

>> Two percent?

>> Yeah, 2%, which is actually, I was looking at other studies that have put GPS collars on sheep. And you can get away with putting them on remarkably few, because the sheep tend to stick together. So, if you know where a few are, you probably know where most of them are. So, 2% was actually kind of on the higher end of what I was finding other people tended to do. So, yeah. So, it's only 20, but that tells us where they are pretty well.

>> No, that's really interesting, because with cattle, that is always a problem, because you have such individualistic behavior in terms of how they use terrain and where they go and what they prefer to feed on. Where with the sheep, because they stay in a group, it's more, yeah, you can get accurate data with a smaller sample.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> How did that work out, the GPS data collection?

>> It's been going well. We're using this design that Jason Karl and Jim Sprinkle developed. And so there are these really lightweight small not fancy little devices. And then we worked with the engineering lab here at Boise State to 3D print some cases for them. And then we put them on these bright orange dog collars that are meant for hunting dogs. And that was a tip I got from someone who had worked with sheep that said they don't, you need to get a bright collar, because it will get lost in the wool, and you'll never be able to find from a distance which sheep you need to catch to get the collars back off.

>> Oh, wow.

>> So, the sheep [inaudible] in really fluorescent collars to make it easy to find. And, yeah, their batteries last for a few weeks, and they're not sending us a signal. We don't know where the sheep are in real time, but we can download the data when we get the collars back off. And it's been really interesting to see and helped us get some insight into how long they're spending in the plots. And I'm hoping moving forward that we can get a little more fine scaled with the data to see, I suspect, and especially after talking with the herders more this fall, that things like the time of day really matters for what kind of treatment effect that we're getting. And we can get into some more of those nuances with our data analysis by using the location and time information. Even how fast are they moving? Like I think we're starting to think more about that, really the finer points, now that we've figured out how to do the basics, we're getting more nuanced, which is exciting.

>> In the video, one of the things that's talked about is that the sheep seem to like the cheatgrass even better in the fall than in the spring, which seems counterintuitive. Yeah, talk about that a little bit.

>> Yeah, it does seem counterintuitive. In the spring, by the time that they get there, when the cheatgrass is green, there's also native plants that are starting to grow. And so I think that what the herder was saying in the video, Roberto, and then from what we have seen, they will eat the green cheatgrass, but there's other things that they would rather eat even more. And so we end up being limited of how much we want to keep them in an area, because we don't want to do targeted grazing of the native plants. So, yeah, I think that they will eat it, but they'll eat other stuff as well. Whereas in the fall, when it's greening back up, the native plants are really truly, for the most part, dormant, and so they have less [inaudible] of other things. But I don't know, Riley, if you have more you want to add to that.

>> No, yeah, that's pretty correct, yeah. In the spring, you have a lot of other green up, and they have a lot more options than in the fall, everything else has gone dormant, and cheatgrass is really about the only thing that greens up in the fall again. And so the sheep really like it in the fall.

>> That green up is the, it's that year's seed crop germinating, right? So, you've essentially got sort of like bean sprouts coming up, are just fresh seedlings that are, I mean, that's part of the cheatgrass strategy, is that they germinate in the fall, and then over winter, as a young plant, I assume that's what they're eating primarily?

>> Yes.

>> Yeah, that's right.

>> They eat the, they eat the small, small green new seedling part of it, mostly. On real, real dry years, when you have no fall rain, and everything is dry, and there's absolutely no green up, they will, they will eat the dry, dry portion of it. But that just goes back to Mother Nature and what Mother Nature is going to give us for the year.

>> Yeah. How much cheatgrass is there? If you're on these plots that you're measuring, Kelly, if you're measuring, are you just measuring total cover? Are you also measuring individual plant density, like number of individuals in a unit area?

>> We're not measuring that while we're out there, because then we would never finish the project.

>> There's a lot of them.

>> But we did, we did one summer collect soil samples to look at what seeds are viable in the soil seed bank, so what seeds are basically hanging out below ground, and able to grow under the right conditions. And so we took all these samples back and essentially grew them in the greenhouse, just put out the soil. But we did some steps first to prepare it, but put out the soil, and get them enough water and light to see what would come up. And, on average, we had, I think it was over 600 cheatgrass seedlings emerge per square meter. And then one plot, it was over 2,000 seedlings emerged per square meter.

>> Wow.

>> So, that's what's lying in wait, basically, ready to germinate and come up each year. And so it's a really staggering amount of cheatgrass that's out there.

>> Yeah, I thought I knew this stuff pretty well, but if somebody had asked me just out of the blue how many cheatgrass seedlings do you think you'd get in a square meter, I would not shoot a number that high. That's crazy. What else have you learned from the study that was unexpected? Sometimes the unexpected things are the best parts of a research project.

>> That's a good question.

>> Or angles for future research that came up as a result of looking at this and thinking through it.

>> Well, one thing that emerged later on was just thinking about how crucial the herders are to doing this work. And so initially we were having the conversations with Riley, and then also the Hensleys are the other [inaudible] we were working with, and so we were talking with them, and then just expected the herders to like go do it. And that was, that was naive on my part to not think of like bringing them into the conversation sooner. And so it turns out that they're really the ones we're working closely with on the ground to implement the treatments. And they're the ones who are seeing what's happening in every single plot. And so one of my graduate students got a fellowship this year to take some extra time to go visit with the herders and talk with them about what they're seeing. And I think that's been really exciting. So, one of the things that she did, and we're working through the analysis right now, is to ask them about the palatability level the different species to the sheep, and then incorporate that into our analysis to be able to show the concern of the Forest Service and others is that like if the sheep really like to eat forbs and things other than cheatgrass, are we going to have unintended consequences for those plants? And so in talking with the herders about what do the sheep like to eat in the spring, what do they like to eat in the fall, and then incorporating their knowledge into our statistical models to see are we unduly impacting the plants that they would prefer to eat I think adds another layer. And what we're finding so far, just preliminary, but that's overall not what's happening. Like we're not having negative impacts on the ones that they prefer to eat. I think something that was really cute is that some of the herders call the ones they really like to eat the chocolate plants. And so the chocolate that's out there on the rangeland, we're not getting big reductions in it, which was a really legitimate concern with trying out this new management strategy. So, I think the more that we can bring together all those different sources of knowledge and all the practical knowledge that the herders have, the conversations with Riley are completely invaluable to making this better. I think that we can keep moving the project in a direction where we have hopefully really management relevant results that could be shared with others who might be interested in doing this kind of work and not needing to reinvent the wheel, and to be able to say with confidence, like, okay, of course it makes sense to be concerned about the chocolate plants that the sheep like the most, but here's what we found about them, and they're not just guessing at what those might be. This is coming from incorporating the herder's observations as well. So, that has been really great. And also just talking with them about like which plots are easier or harder for you to implement the grazing on, we're learning, I'm learning a lot about sheep grazing and herding in ways that could make the next project a lot better.

>> Yeah, and as you say, there's so many implications and applications for this. I mean, I feel like everybody is talking now about how to use targeted grazing for fire risk reduction, because it's one of the only cost effective methods we've got. If the alternatives are chemical and mechanical, for one thing, that's really not even logistically feasible in the kind of landscape that you're working in. And sheep are the perfect tool. I resist calling them tools. But it fits. But either, whether we're talking about grazing a large area, just to change the composition, the structure, or the fuel load, or something like grazing firebreaks, the observation I was thinking of earlier was that we had a fire and grazing workshop in Eastern Washington, near the Town of Medical Lake, which burned down a big wildfire last year. And there was a rancher in the area. Morris [inaudible] had used a neighboring sheep rancher's sheep to graze an area that was on a fence line. And the results were just spectacular. I mean, the animals had been there for a little while. They grazed it down to sort of a target stubble height. And, of course, on the fence line, you've got five foot tall yellow grass that's solid, you know, all the way out to where you've got other human infrastructure, like houses. And it was so obvious that if you, even if you just grazed them for a little while, you know, somewhere, once you've gotten past the peak of plant growth, it dramatically changes the fire characteristics. And I feel like sheep is going to be, are going to be one of the, you know, one of the golden tools, where maybe 10 years from now, you know, people like Riley are going to have agencies calling them up, saying, when can I get a few bands of sheep out here to get some work done for me? On places where we previously would have said, no, these are protected areas, we don't want to graze there. Well, it may be that the only way to protect the protected areas is going to be to use a natural vegetation control mechanism like sheep grazing.

>> Yeah, and I think something encouraging that we're finding so far is talking a lot about like, oh, we don't want to have too much impact on the native species, because that's been a big concern of the Forest Service. And I think one of the things that they need to see before they would feel comfortable to start calling up Riley and his counterparts to come do targeted grazing is that they really want to manage these ecosystems well and be assured that they're not going to have adverse effects. And so with this study, wars focusing a lot on not just the effect on cheatgrass, but also on the native plants. And in the fall grazing, especially with last year's treatment, we found that their fall grazing significantly reduced the cheatgrass, and had no impact on the native species. And so I think that could be our sweet spot. And so moving toward thinking about like what kind of recommendations we could make, it may be that from this, we could conclude like here's how we can really just target cheatgrass alone in the system. And then Riley was mentioning how it's just logistically harder to get there in the spring, so we can incorporate that perspective of the logistics and what's happening with the plant community, and then hopefully give that sort of a strong scientific backing for these agencies to then be able to make management decisions to potentially adapt how they're doing things, when understandably they want to be careful about trying new stuff, and so this type of study could point us in the way toward hopefully having the most benefit and the least detriment for everybody involved.

>> Yeah, I would expect that there could be some other benefits that weren't looked for, like nutrient cycling. You know, we talk about that, but I feel like I haven't seen that much good research on whether and how well managed livestock grazing enhances or, you know, has some beneficial effect to nutrient cycling. But certainly in most of these semi arid ecosystems, nutrients are a limiting factor. I don't know if I've told the story before, but when I was at the University of Idaho, there was a forestry professor, I'm drawing a blank on his name right now, who was doing research in Eastern Washington with some of the private timber companies. And they were specifically trying to develop a model that would predict under what forest sand conditions would it be profitable to fertilize a forest. And so they had all these different treatments. And in some of the drier, drier, low elevation, you know, just barely on the edge of mixed conifer forest sites, they were fertilizing like a six foot radius around the tree. And, of course, if you cord the tree, you could see some difference in the rings in the couple years I think at that point that they had been fertilizing, but you could really see a difference in the grass, in that ring around the tree. And we're talking like five pounds of nitrogen or less, you know, this is not a lot of fertilizer. But just that small shift in nutrient availability made a big difference. And I would expect that there might be, even if it's subtle, I could imagine that there could be a real benefit probably to the native plants in having a little bit of extra nutrients moving through the system, as opposed to just being tied up in the plant canopy. And I'm curious, have you guys measured any of that, or have any thoughts on it?

>> That's a good point. So, we are measuring. In a few different ways, we're measuring nutrients in the soil. And especially focusing on nitrogen. And it's an interesting one when it comes to cheatgrass, because cheatgrass is really good at capitalizing on nitrogen that's available in the soil. And so there is kind of a balance that we would want to strike between we want the sheep to be there, and we do see them in cheatgrass aboveground through grazing or trampling activity. But there is a possibility that they could end up fertilizing them and enhancing the conditions for cheatgrass by putting more nitrogen in the soil. And then if the cheatgrass can take it at the expense of the native plants, then that would be an unintended consequence. And so we thought it was really important to understand what's happening with nitrogen, because it's not for sure that that's the way it would go, but that would be an important component of this to understand. And so far we're not seeing that there is much shift below ground in the nutrient levels, but it's something that we're hoping that we can continue to study with more funding for additional years. And we're going to look even more at that, and get more nuanced, because something we've been observing is that the sheep are definitely not only reducing the [inaudible] of cheatgrass, but also breaking up the carpeted dead cheatgrass on the soil surface, and really trampling and churning it into the soil. And so that's part of what's opening up the gaps in the canopy that could add up to a change in fire behavior eventually. But it's also putting more of that organic material in the soil. And so we're hoping that a next phase can be to look over time if they're increasing the soil carbon, which could also be beneficial for these ecosystems potentially. Some of the areas are really pretty degraded and will want soil carbon, and so [inaudible] that back up a little bit could increase the ability of the soil to hold water, and nutrient cycling for the natives, and all the good things you suggested, without necessarily just being cheatgrass fertilizer. So, we're not seeing that yet, but we're really closely watching that as something of interest in this system.

>> I look forward to hearing about that. I've got one more question for Riley, and then I'll ask everybody for some final thoughts. We've tried to do some targeted grazing with cattle in Eastern Washington, and the challenge is always getting water in the place where you need it, because cows take a lot of water. And I don't know, I'm aware that, I mean, sheep, I'm aware, tend to get more of their water requirement from the plants, but they still have to drink something. What are the water requirements of sheep like in the fall during this period of time when you're doing targeted grazing on cheatgrass, when it's drier out?

>> Yeah, so, where we're doing cheatgrass now, there's ample cricks and streams and water sources available there.

>> Yeah.

>> So, there's plenty of water. And sheep do tend to drink a little more in the fall, drier conditions. But sheep, sheep are also very, very good at using dew and snow and rainfall. So, if you have any sort of fall moistures, sheep really don't require a whole lot.

>> Not much drinking water.

>> If you're having these nice 60, 70 degree fall days and everything is dry, they're going to require a fair amount of water. But if you're having some good fall precipitations, they won't hardly drink water. We've been on the desert all winter long, and ever since the snow showed up, the sheep haven't drank an actual drop of water in probably, oh, 30 days now.

>> Wow.

>> They're very good at living off of the snow and whatever, whatever other moistures they have available to them.

>> Yeah. What breed or breed composition are you running?

>> So, I'm going to say 90, 90% of my sheep are Dorset Rambouillet cross. And then I do have one bunch of Merinos. And that's about where we're at. We run Suffolk, Suffolk bucks, on 90% of them for market lambs. And then the Merinos have been a fairly new, new addition to the mix.

>> More value for the wool, right, Riley?

>> They're a little more valued for the wool. But we bought them to raise ewe lambs out of for replacement stock.

>> Oh, okay. Yeah.

>> In the sheep world, the sheep world is kind of dying out. And it's pretty hard to go by replacement stock anymore, so we've kind of changed gears to hopefully be able to raise all our own needs, to hold our numbers.

>> Well, thank you. Steve, any final thoughts about this project?

>> Well, I just think Kelly has done an awesome job on the research study, and she's really fun to work with, and very inclusive and welcoming to other people. And so I think we've seen a lot of different people participating in her study that might not have been otherwise. And, gosh, we sure need these results. And I think, you know, we're going to need a lot more, you know, grazing with livestock to reduce fire danger in the future. And so we need to keep working towards that. And I just also want to thank Riley for helping out with the study. You know, he's way down near Rupert, Idaho, and Declo, with the home ranch, as I understand it. And he's spread out all over Southern Idaho in the summer. And so that takes a big effort to get up there with the sheep. And he's just been fantastic to work with, and obviously, you know, his herders, and Riley and Kelly are working super well together to, you know, keep the sheep on the research plots and stuff. So, yeah, it's just amazing how great our producers are, you know, helping with things like this. They really know their stuff, and they know their animal husbandry. And it's just a real advantage to be able to work with those guys. So, kudos to them, for sure.

>> Yeah. Kelly, any final thoughts? And if not, maybe last question being what's next for this project?

>> Well, I want to echo what Steve said about so many people being involved. So, it's definitely not just me and Riley. There's the Forest Service, and then other professors; Marie Anne de Graaff at Boise State and April Hewitt, who I mentioned, and [inaudible] at Oregon State. And then many, many, many, many graduate students and undergrads and people have just been so gracious contributing to this project and making it as successful as it's been. And so for me, the collaboration with Riley and then the Hensleys who were using their sheep on their grazing allotment too has just been, it's just been amazing. Like Steve said, we couldn't learn the things we're learning without their involvement and contributions. And so, anyway, I just want to really acknowledge and thank everyone who's been involved. And what's next is we will apply for more funding and hopefully can keep it going. So, mentioned that the weather affects how much cheatgrass there is from year to year, and so the more that we can get a longer time series to really understand under different conditions how the treatments are affecting the system, and can we get some sustained reductions in cheatgrass, I think is something we need more than three years to really answer. And so hopefully we'll be able to keep it going and continue to look more into the nuances of how to improve our treatment application, and to understand what's happening in soil, and, yeah, just be able to do good science that can hopefully inform management and create more of these opportunities for using sheep. The sheep, too, are just amazing. Like they've even learned the routes between the plots. We saw that this fall. Like they knew where to go. And that's, it's just incredible to work with like essentially having animals on the team as well. So, yeah, it's been a great project, and I'm hoping we can keep it going.

>> Yeah, I love that. I love everything about it. Thank you for what you're doing. And I really look forward to hearing about results in the future. Thanks, guys.

>> Yeah, thank you.

>> You bet.

>> Thank you. Appreciate it.

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