AoR 153: Back to the Future with American Fibers -- Cate Havstad, Ed Mouw, & Ed Roberson at SXSW

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>> Welcome to the Art of Range, a podcast focused on rangelands and the people who manage them. I'm your host, Tip Hudson, range and livestock specialist with Washington State University Extension. The goal of this podcast is education and conservation through conversation. Find us online at artofrange.com.

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Welcome to the Art of Range. My guests are Cate Havstad Casad. She is the Founder and CEO of Range Revolution, which is a leather goods company. We also have Daniel Mouw, who's the President of Duckworth, the [inaudible] company with a cult following. I can say that because I'm part of the cult. And Ed Roberson of the Mountain & Prairie Podcast. Cate, Daniel, and Ed, welcome.

>> Thanks, Tip.

>> Hi, Tip.

>> We're existing in sort of an impromptu manner at the South by Southwest Festival in Austin, because they are doing a panel discussion tomorrow in the climate track titled Farmer Founded Brands Will Save American Fashion. That's a gutsy title. I like it. There's a lot packed into that. And I'm thrilled to talk about it. The panel has not happened yet, so this will get you warmed up. We'll do a practice run here. I want to jump into questions, because I've got a lot of excited thoughts that I want to chew through. But we don't know each other well, actually. And listeners sure don't. So, let's do some introductions. And then I want to know how you all got connected and came to be doing this session together at South by Southwest. So, we'll just go around the table here. Who are you and what's your role in the company or organization you're representing?

>> Yeah, so, Cate Havstad Casad. And, as you mentioned, Tip, I'm the Founder, CEO of Range Revolution. I'm also the co owner of Casad Family Farms. We have an organic farm and ranch operation in Madras, Oregon. And I'm also the Founder of Havstad Hat Company. And the context to those three businesses, my work in design and my work in agriculture started at around the same time. And in about 2013, I was learning to make hats. I ended up on my now husband's first farm. And so those two careers of hat making, design, and agriculture started to evolve together. So, in my world, they've always been very intertwined. In 2021, our farm and ranch lost 80% of its irrigation waters. This is, in part, due to drought. This is, in part, due to Western water law and politics.

>> Oh, my goodness.

>> So, we had built a farming model that was based upon doing say 80% of our business was based on wholesale vegetable production. All of a sudden we did not have the water for that business anymore. And I had to very quickly pivot our business model. My husband is absolutely my partner in the operation. He very much runs the farming operations and the equipment and the implementation of these things and day to day chores. But I really lead the business strategy. And so we quickly have had to pivot to build a direct to consumer meat business. And now today that meat business is 100% of our revenue. So, in a deep dive to honestly save our farm, I had to learn a lot about the meat business. I had to learn a lot about processing. I had to learn a lot about margins. And I started to see in the spreadsheets that every time we send a steer to slaughter, really only about 65% of that carcass is getting utilized. And that's because we land in this sort of ag of the middle category. And that means our processors don't have off take for the hides, the bones, the fat, the awful. And we'll take back as much as we can. And we try and sell as much as we can. But the hides are one of those things that like there is no market for currently. And they do go to the trash. And it is not free to throw them away. You are paying to dispose of them. And then those hides also contribute to the methane of our entire industry. They don't just compost in a landfill. They actually act as methane. So, that was sort of the beginning of the journey of Range Revolution, where I felt like we could uplift the economic realities of family ranches that exist in this mid size level by increasing that percentage of the carcass that gets utilized. And I also felt like there is a hungry audience who wants beautiful well made goods that they know come from positive supply chains. And that is really why I decided to floor all of my insane energy into Range Revolution. Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's crazy. Thank you. And we'll come back to that. Dan, what's your background? Oh, not even close to as inspiring as that. Plan A was to be a stockbroker at Merrill Lynch. And the Plan B was to be a real estate developer who bought ranches and chopped them up and made golf courses. No joke. And I went to business school to learn how to do that and had a pretty significant, to me, health scare, at age 30, that kind of shook me up in a good way, and made me realize, after, you know, driving my wife crazy for a few years, maybe realize like I needed to be using my brains and any professional expertise I had to do, things that were better than destroying these wide open places that I really loved, and that drew me to the West to begin with. And so started focusing more on land conservation, both in the real estate business, working with government, governments, county governments, land trust, to try to do real estate deals, to conserve land, and had a little bit of success with that. And then ended up spending a lot more time than I'd like fighting with real estate developers in lawsuits and all that kind of stuff. And I decided like I've got a lot of energy, not as much energy as Cate, but I've got a lot of energy. I want to devote that to the land conservation side of things. So, I went over and was a conservation director at a regional land trust for four years. And along the way, I've had this podcast that I was doing at nights and weekends. And it slowly, slowly, slowly built up. And nobody listened for many years. And then a decent amount of people started listening, and I kind of had to make a choice of continue full time land conservation or go on in my podcast and different things associated with the podcast. And I chose the podcast. And so it's been great. And that's my full time job now. I mean, it's bizarre. You look at my class of fellow MBA graduates, and I can promise you, I'm the only one doing a podcast. So, yeah, I mean, it's been a great run.

>> That is a cool story.

>> Mostly it's weird.

>> Daniel?

>> Yeah, Tip, thanks for having me, Cate, I'm stoked to be down at South by with you and talking about this. I started with Duckworth back in 2020. So, kind of at the height of COVID. Background prior to that was in public accounting, actually task audit type work. And there just wasn't a ton of meaning into that. And my journey into the apparel space, we were talking offline, really stumbled into it. But it all started with more of my desire to become more connected to the land and local economies. We've become so separated from where products come from. And we're just so willing to buy stuff from overseas. And we don't actually know the people that are making it, whether that's our food, clothing, pots, pans, you name it. And came across a loath clothing company called Duckworth in Bozeman, Montana. And just gravitated towards it. They were making stuff here in the United States, which I believe is of utmost importance, particularly right now. And it was a Montana product. The wool is raised in Montana. It's all processed here in the United States. So, there's that connection again to the local communities and supporting local jobs and that that was just really important to me. Was in public accounting, like I said, and then stumbled into a job with Duckworth. And just kept growing ever since then within the company and focused in on making high quality apparel with wool here in the United States. And it is a crazy journey to bring wool to finished goods. In the U.S., we have lost hundreds of thousands of textile jobs, dating back to the 1990s, going back all the way to 1973. The wool industry, as well, from its peak in 1942, is down about 93% from stock sheep and wool produced. So, we're really battling upstream two different industries. That's a loss of textiles, a loss of wool. And a lot of that has been replaced by synthetic fibers as well. So, we're battling that whole industry. But the idea of Duckworth, just to get into that a little bit, if I may, was the grandchild of our founder, John Helle. And it is what we call the Mick Jagger of the wool industry. He's devoted his entire life to producing a very high quality wool. So, we are 18 micron, which is incredibly fine for next to skin. Nineteen micron, 20, 21 micron. There's just not a lot of that in the United States. And he and his family have focused in on the genetics to make that possible so we can actually put it into high quality apparel. But he got connected with the brand builder back in 2012 on a local ski hill called Maverick. And they dreamed up this Duckworth concept. And we've just been running after it ever since. And, again, just trying to showcase that we can make high quality goods right here in the United States using wool from local farms, similar to what, Cate, you're doing with yours. Let's use everything of the animal, everything that the land gives us, and produce it into products that we can use, rather than constantly extracting, let's give back as well. So, that, again, I've mentioned it, it's been a crazy ride, again, starting at the height of COVID, and trying to navigate through the apparel space during that time.

>> It's that new?

>> The company, I'm that new, yeah, the company is 2013. I'm that new in the apparel space, stumbling into it.

>> No, I mean, I wondered whether Duckworth tried to launch [inaudible].

>> No, no, no. Thankfully not.

>> That would have been incredibly difficult, but would have done it anyway [inaudible].

>> Yeah [inaudible]. That's awesome. Well, I'm captivated by the section title. I think whether because I'm an idealist, I tend to think in terms of what ought to be. That's probably just my disposition. But also comes I think from being an ecologist. You're always thinking about, you know, what's healthy in sort of the big picture holistic sense. So, I feel like I've got the window buried on one shoulder, saying natural fibers, sourced locally, and I say that a little bit loosely, is good for our society. And then I've got Harlan Hughes on the other shoulder saying but it's got to make money, or it won't last. He's not a devil. He's an economist from North Dakota State University. And then window barrier applies and says, if a local economy is built right, then sustainability and profitability are synergistic. They run together. And I want to believe that. I really like seeing these truly natural connections between what's good for the landscape and what's good for people and their pocketbooks. My favorite example is how we got cattle grazing and botanically diverse piece of rangeland. And they have lower adopting costs than the ones that are on the, you know, abundant washy grass, but only one species in the irrigated pasture. They're cheaper because they're healthier, and the rancher is not spending money on medicine. It just works. And so my professional role in the world is to help ranchers maintain or rebuild that ecological health. And for all the benefits that are downstream from that. But in your world, I'm an armchair philosopher. I don't have any direct, you know, financial stake in that game. They checked in with somebody who wants to see landowners rewarded for stewardship, because if people are only getting paid for pounds of cash, it's not quite enough to, you know, to keep those people in business, I guess. And so we've been talking for years about different ways, you know, payment frequencies and services, you name it. But I really like the idea of fiber coming back into the food and fiber equation as a means of profit. So, that's a long introduction to my really short question, can it work, can those two angels on my shoulder sing together.

>> Yes.

>> Maybe you should start answering.

>> Yes, I think so. I think that, I mean, what you're saying is exactly true. There's actually a lot of inefficiencies in a globalized market that we have created that is subsidized in a lot of ways. So, we aren't internalizing a lot of the externalities of a globalized system. So, it might be cheap in one sense, but the global systems say of letters, like, for example, the commodity leather, it might start out in Brazil, and it might come from a system that is directly tied to deforestation. It might travel from Brazil to China for tanning. It will go through that process there and will travel from China to Italy for fabrication. And then that finished product will travel from Italy say back to warehouse in Los Angeles for distribution by a fashion company. And when you look at the total travel of that raw material, it probably went about 25,000 miles around the globe. Did we ever actually internalize the cost of that? Or did we ever internalize, you know, the unregulated tanning process that probably happened in China, or the pollution that occurred in the waterways of that place? Or the lack of protection for workers in those places. We never internalize any of that. So, it actually comes at quite a great cost.

>> Well, the cost of everybody in the middle has got to make a little bit of money.

>> Yes.

>> And if everybody makes a little bit of money, there's nothing left by the time it gets back to the guy that [inaudible].

>> Yeah, so, you know, as we're spending a lot of time, you know, just studying our costs of goods, and the price per square foot of our [inaudible] is very, very fair. And it doesn't outpace high quality leathers that you could get from anywhere else. So, that's not the barrier. I find the barrier, or the [inaudible], it actually starts in the mindsets of the designers. It starts in the mindsets of the major organizations. And so it is why I believe we need disruptive young brands to rebuild the supply chain and show what is possible. It's a mindset, and it's a management issue. I don't think it's actually an economic barrier. So, yeah, it should, it is profitable.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow. I would agree with that as well. I think Duckworth proves that [inaudible] profitable. We've been growing year over year, which has been amazing. We're doing it right here on American soil. And taking that whole fiber from the ranch in Montana. And we send it to numerous different supply chain partners right here in the United States, supporting local communities. And we're doing it profitably. And, Cate, you're right, we do need to start with a design aspect. We need to major durable goods, first and foremost. And that does start with the designer saying, I'm going to choose the strongest construction that we can with this. I'm going to use this fiber for this rather than just trying to stuff things through a supply chain and make more money on the backs of other people. Because there's, there's a cost associated with that, when we start to send these fibers all across the globe in places, like you said, that are using poor labor standards, or don't have the same environmental thought that we do here in the United States. And there's a legitimate cost to that. And we talk about the synthetic fibers as well. Like we don't really understand what that is costing us from an economical, environmental standpoint. You know, we're tracking a bunch of that stuff. You bring up Wendell Berry. That's one of my favorite authors, by the way. And he talks about that being a specialist and an abstractionist. And we see that in our space. We are abstracting as much as we can. We're not giving back. And we need to be doing that. And when I think about wool specifically, like it is one of those fibers that can be recycled over and over and over. Up to six times is what I was reading over the past couple weeks, before it becomes end of life. And at end of life, you can burn that in the ground, and it's going to give its nutrients back to the land again. There's not another synthetic fiber that can do that. So, again, when we start to think about cost, if we bury a synthetic fiber, breaking down into a microplastic, because we know that microplastics are a pretty big deal in our environment right now, causing harm to waterways, soil, people, it's in our bodies. So, there's costs. We are internalizing [inaudible] but not in a good way, because they're inside of us. So, that's not what we want.

>> I never thought of that.

>> Yeah.

>> It's an economic turn. These externalities are things that have long term costs that don't get brought into the more local reckoning [inaudible] actually cost to produce.

>> I think it's worse, you know, putting a statistic to this. So, in today's world, close to 70% of the textiles that make up the fashion industry are petroleum based.

>> Correct.

>> And that number, I really want more people to know, and so the work that we're doing, and being here at South by, most people don't know that. We live in the niche of this work. Most people don't, and I didn't know that, and the deeper I got into this world, the more I was like, oh, shit, this needs to be worked on, this needs to have a large awareness campaign around it. And, you know, I've done a lot of my work in raising awareness around agriculture and more sustainable practices through the food on the plate. But there is a very unique opportunity through talking through style, through clothing, it enters a different side of pop culture that I would argue is even further away from agriculture than the people who you're trying to reach when you talk about food.

>> That's really interesting.

>> Yeah, and just to, I mean, build on that too, 70% being synthetic, that means only 30% is a natural fiber that we're using in our textiles. That's incredibly low.

>> And probably much of that is cotton, right?

>> Yes.

>> Cotton is a big one. Wool is the global fiber in 2023 used in textiles, 0.94%, 0.94.

>> I think 2% make up animal fibers is what I read.

>> Globally?

>> Globally.

>> Really?

>> It is super small.

>> Huh.

>> And yet it's, again, the most recyclable fiber that we have. The one that gives back to the land when it's done. And it makes up 0.94% globally fibers in use for textiles. Very low.

>> Well, it feels like this is gaining some traction in a number of directions. It sort of feels like we're having like a Back to the Future moment right now in American agriculture. And one of the drivers has been the increasing cost of petroleum that's causing farmers to rethink whether or not they can afford to put 200 pounds of nitrate on their fields every year. But, you know, we're integrating livestock back into cropping systems. There's this renaissance of natural fibers that I feel like is happening both with wool and leather. We've had, in the last 10 years, a ton of, you know, small to midsize avatars get built in the country. You've got, you know, more local markets for all of these things. People, I think, are gravitating toward Naga seems to have run its course. And people are looking for real leather. Philosophically, you know, people that have observed technology adoption have said that we often do things just because we can in our ability to make technological advancements far exceeds our ability to think about what the effects of that might be, and whether or not they're good. And, you know, we're sort of a first world Western idea that we have a view of the progress with a capital P that any progress is good progress, foreign progress. Whatever good means. But, you know, progress got us Chris Jones butter, vinyl carpet instead of hardwood floors or wool, or rugs, on top of a hardwood floor, Coca Cola instead of cider, synthetic fleece instead of Merino wool. You name it. We could go on. And as you mentioned, Daniel, now we've got microplastics in the ocean and now are plastics in our bodies. And everybody's freaking out. Childhood obesity has tripled since the 1970s when I was born. You know, so it feels like this Back to the Future moment is part of a growing revolution. Maybe that's an accurate term against whatever pieces of progress weren't good for us. And it's encouraging. So, now we're eating butter, we're ripping out carpet, we're wearing wool, we're grazing cover crops to increase soil carbon on tired farmland that's been fertilized for a hundred years. And people are using Range Revolution leather purses instead of Naga hide from China. I've [inaudible] my question is, did I just paint a picture of my green world, you know, the one that Wendell Berry is whispering in my ear, or is it, or is it really happening? Like is it working for you?

>> Yeah. You want to go, Daniel?

>> Well, Wendell Berry's dream is my dream as well. I think it is happening in small corners of the world. And I think that's why we're here in Austin, is to try to continue to expand that. And I think in my own personal life, you bring up carpet, my wife and I ripped out our carpet that was put into this back home, and we installed wool carpet and a wool pad. We didn't choose this. What I was sold was a natural pad. Come to find out, it was polyester [inaudible]. Since when it polyester natural? It's just crazy. So, we went out of our way to go find a wool pad. And there is that sort of movement that is happening right now, and, again, I think it's one that we just need to continue to pour gasoline on that. I ripped up a 20 by 30 foot square place in my home to install a garden. So, it's that Back to the Future, as you described it, except that I think we are starting to see people go back to it. I would much rather than vegetables locally. I'd much rather get my beef locally. And I think the same thing is true for fibers, whether that's leather goods or a T shirt. Get it locally. That's using natural fibers. And there are people that are super passionate about that. And we need to get it into their hands and let them continue to tell that story for us and with us, because it's better together when we do that. But it's totally happening.

>> Yeah, and I think part B of the question, specific to you guys, is, you know, are your companies growing? It appears that way from the outside. And I can we have known some small business entrepreneurs that sort of hit this, hit this threshold, where it's difficult to expand. Like to expand, you've got to invest first, and then trust that production is going to come, whether it's employees, production space, you know, whatever. But you sort of have to take that leap, because you can't, you can't sell the goods until you produce the goods. But you've got to know that you're going to be able to sell the goods before you wrap up all the production infrastructure and people that it takes to make it.

>> Yeah.

>> If you're not going, don't tell me right now. I'll try to help sell some stuff.

>> We are going. I will tell you that. I'll talk about what I think is our MVP product. And then I'll take our powder cookie, maybe Tip, you have

>> Let's do this thing on

>> I've got two [inaudible].

>> I mean, it's truly like the best piece of clothing possibly had ever.

>> The first two months this year, we have sold 1,000 more units than we did last year, which is phenomenal.

>> Two of them last year were mine.

>> Good. I'll wear you another two more.

>> And I hate being cold. And I discovered wool about 10 years ago. And I'm wearing Duckworth wool socks right now because feet will always be clammy and never dry.

>> Yes.

>> I'm not being paid for the service.

>> Yeah, me neither. I mean, no joke, like I love that thing.

>> They're amazing.

>> Yeah. I think it's because we have put so much energy from literally the ground up to make these products. And transparently, we are using some synthetic fibers in that garment.

>> To increase durability.

>> Durability. But anything that we can do that uses a natural fiber to continue to support that is what we need to be doing. And you are both ones who are advocating for powdered hoodies, and we didn't even pay you to do that. They're just that awesome.

>> I advertise I'm wearing them all the time. And somebody says, what is that?

>> Yeah?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, I'll touch on Range Revolution. Yeah, Range Revolution is growing. Last year was our first kind of full on year of direct to consumer sales. And it was our first year of bringing on some select independent retailers. I'll just kind of use, you know, moving of hides around. So, that's as a metric for growth. So, until now, we've been moving pallets at a time. It's not been very efficient. But it's like what we've needed to do. We've also just been like refining our relationships with our tannery partners. You know, what does our leather selection look like? What are the colors? What are the finishes that we like? And then, you know, what are the barriers in our supply chain? What are the limitations? Is it volume? Is it quality? When the cattle market changes and there's a lot more [inaudible] cows moving through the market, it does change your end leather product. So, how are we going to design to make use of the coal cow hides, you know? And, you know, how can we use our creativity to actually create the demand and the pull through even for those ones, not just the fast? So, this year, actually, we're organizing our first truck full. Now, this is actually going to happen because we're working with a couple of other brands. We're going to broker some of these leathers, just in other brands as well. And that's going to increase our efficiencies. It's also going to just like bring more of these leathers to market for other people.

>> Yeah.

>> So, but this is a capital intensive build. This has been, I've taken many a big risks. And I'm in a position to do it. You know, I have another, you know, part time career, which kind of is like my safety net personally. But this is a capital intensive thing. I've had to raise capital to do this. I have some angel investors. I'm taking lots of debt this year to grow it. And I'd say, you know, I agree there's absolutely a raising awareness in a portion of the population. I also have to be very realistic that in the fashion space, there are a lot of people who don't give a crap. And I am getting more realistic about, sure, we'll tell our sustainability story. And I hope to capture of course as much of a market that's based on altruism that is possible. But I'm not relying on that. These products have to be beautiful, they have to speak to trend. Women have to just see a beautiful bag on the wall and want it. And then we might find out more about the story, and that might be a really eye opening experience for them. But for us to move some serious volume in this industry, we have to leave beauty, design, trend. And then what's most important is that we, as a company, the center pillar is our ethos and our sourcing. That will never change. So, that's my approach to growth right now. Yeah.

>> I want to come back to sourcing, but first I'm interested in fashion. I hope you know personally, I just [inaudible]. Yeah. Yeah, back to the title of your session. Probably no one listening to the Art of Range podcast is ever going to hear whatever happens in the session. This is [inaudible] group. You're going to record it?

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, good. Excellent. I'm just going to read the session title. It says today over 70% of fashion fibers are petroleum based. Fast fashion fills landfills. And rural U.S. community crumble as production is sent overseas. Meanwhile, natural fibers are wasted. The brands Range Revolution and Duckworth are rebuilding American fiber chains to empower farmers, rebuild soil, reduce waste, support local communities, and reframe consumption. In this panel, we explore how farmers are rebuilding the U.S. fiber supply chains to regenerate people, planet, and community. Now, that was well written. It's compelling. I love it. So, my first question is, what is, what is American fashion? How do you define fashion? Something other than what people ought to wear. I've pondered this a little bit, just because it's an interesting thing. You know, a hundred years ago, people, people wore clothing based on what they did for a living. You know, form followed function. If you were a farrier, you wore the clothes that were necessary to shoe horses. If you were a cobbler, you wore a suit that enabled you to build shoes. And on and on and on. But today, nearly everybody, except for the people, there's a line from that Alabama song, 40 Hour Week, their fruits of their labor are worth more than their pay. There are people who still actually work for a living. And, you know, some of them wear what they have to. But for most of us, we pick clothing just to make some statement about who we are, because it's comfortable, it's what we like. So, I'm curious, you know, when you say we're trying to rebuild or save American fashion, what does that mean?

>> I look at fashion today, like you said, it's less about the utility for most people. I think fashion is about aspiration. I think that most people are trying to communicate some sense of their identity or what they aspire to be. And I think that's how a lot of marketing plays into us, which is like is aspirational. And I've thought a lot about this word, aspiration, in this context, because for a long time, there's been an aspiration kind of sold to us that indicates whether it's wealth is, you know, the aspirational status. You belong to some tribe, right? Yeah, right? Sometimes it's ethos. You know, Patagonia has done a great job of building a sort of ethos and aspiration to be a conscious consumer. If you buy Gucci, you know, there was a status symbol tied to luxury, exclusivity or wealth. I, my radical vision for the future, and through this work, is that we redefine what is aspirational. I love beautiful things, you know, I do have a designer's mindset. I like beautiful shapes and nice tailored clothing. And I love a sharp denim and a good boot. I would love if we redefined aspiration that, you know, the goods that we buy actually create the better world that we seek to see. You know, and I think that clothing, style, fashion is a conduit to do that at a much larger pop culture scale. So, what is American fashion? I think that we are in the driver's seat right now to redefine what that is. Yeah.

>> Yeah, that answered part of the question of how will farmers source to fibers save it if there's some, there's an aspirational and ethical drive behind fashion choices that be able to drive some of that money back into farmers instead of Paul the middle man and Chinese chippers.

>> I have like a personal mission statement that if I were to try and like write, like put a bow around what I do, like my mission is to try and inspire people to find their place in the natural world. And I think that even if you live in New York or San Francisco, you could find your place in the natural world, you can take on an identity of steward, even though you don't have a piece of land that you care for, but the decisions that you make through what you put on your body, you put on your bedding, you put in your home, you put in your mouth, that is you taking on a civic duty of steward. And so I think it would be great. And that's my great radical vision for the world is that people adopt that sort of a mindset.

>> Yeah. I like it. I want to talk for a minute about what I think is a wool renaissance. And maybe that's just my own personal perspective. But it feels like there are really changing perceptions about wool. You know, I would have, yeah, if somebody had asked me 20 years ago about wool, you know, the connotation that I would have is an [inaudible]. But you could also buff the rest of your bumper [inaudible]. You know, that's why people didn't buy it. But probably a decade ago, my wife, and seemingly 70 of her friends, took up knitting with real wool. And, you know, this is nice wool, it's expensive stuff. But if you actually wear it. I don't have the [inaudible] here. But I've got a wool sweater. It's one of the first things she ever made. But it looks like something you would have bought off of a Range Revolution website, you know, with a quarter zip, sleeve length is just right, fits right, and it keeps me warm all the time. It's awesome stuff. And the knitting shop in town is also going gangbusters. Yeah, she tells high quality wool yarns, does knitting classes, you know, the whole nine yards. So, I've been, I mentioned I hate being cold. I've been living in Duckworth wool for about a year now. And I'm really enjoying it. And it feels like there's at least, yeah, there's an effort for, there's a trend toward people doing useful hobbies. There's a growing awareness of the benefits of wool. And I thought this might be a good place for you to talk about what I feel like I've heard about the amazing qualities of wool. You've talked about that a little bit. But it really is an extraordinary fiber that people have been using for as long as thousands of years, right? Like it's probably one of the first fibers that we actually put on our bodies to keep us warm, or to keep us cool. I mean, you mentioned being hot. I am wearing a 100% wool shirt right now in Austin, and it's 80 degrees outside. One of the connotations with wool is that it's itchy. And I know the audience isn't going to see this, but to feel this thing and tell me if that's itchy.

>> Oh, no. No, that's nice.

>> Yeah. It's not. And that's a lot to do, particularly with the Helles and what they've done on the ranch, and focusing in on so much of the genetic is to make it comfortable, where you can't wear it next to skin, and there's a lot of other people starting to pick up on that, which then makes it a useful product for everyday wear. And [inaudible] jumping back to the fashion component of it, what we're trying to do is build products that are both timeless and functional. And that is redefining fashion. Like we don't want these things to end up in a landfill in three months, like fast fashion brands do.

>> Right, disposable clothing.

>> Correct. This isn't a disposable camera. Right? So, in order to do that, you need to leave the quality, and that's searching the fiber forward. So, we've put so much energy and time into crafting and developing a high quality fiber that can go into [inaudible] products; outer layers, socks, beanies, et cetera, so that it is doable. And there's no other fiber in the world that can do what wool does. I mean, it's antimicrobial. I will wear this thing. I'm going to hang it up in my closet when I get home. And it's not going in the wash machine. There isn't going to be stink in it, because it will kill that smell off. Thermal regulating, like we've talked about. I am very cool in 85 degree weather down here in Austin, wearing wool. No one knows about that. It has typically been chalked up as this cold weather fiber. It's not. It is perfect for every temperature out there. I know people in Florida.

>> I've got several pieces of wool long underwear. And you can wear them for four or five days, and they don't stick.

>> Correct.

>> You wear polyester long johns for five minutes, and they stink to high heaven.

>> Yep, yep.

>> It's the strangest thing.

>> Yeah, I mean, you think about the places that you can wear wool. And it is literally everywhere. Any activity. And the benefit, you don't have to wash it. And it's, again, find me another fiber that can do that. We have attempted to recreate that with polyesters, with acrylics, with nylons. We cannot replicate the natural properties of wool. So, I mean, we're just talking on some of those benefits. And, oh, we can go on and on and on. It's a renewable resource. We shear sheep once a year. We just got done shearing our flock last week actually. Next March, March 2026, they're going to have a brand new fleece on them. We're going to shear that. That's going to go into more clothing. It's biodegradable, like we talked about. Such that, again, a fiber that just has so many qualities, that these synthetic fibers don't. And, you're right, there does seem to be a renaissance with that. And that's driven because we've put the energy into creating a good fiber that can go into high quality products. And that's a message and a story that we want to continue to build on and let people know, this is a fiber you can count on, regardless of what you're doing, count on wool. It is, it's America's first fiber. It's the world's first fiber for a reason.

>> Yeah.

>> Let's keep it that way.

>> Now, you made this really interesting point about never throwing the shirt away. I wouldn't have thought of that, but that waste stream out of cheap fashion is gigantic. My wife's parents used to live in Brownsville, Texas, just south of here on the border. And people used to go across to the warehouse on the Mexico side. And there were entire [inaudible] warehouses with mountains of clothes that had been discarded. And you would buy used clothing by the pound. That's how you checked out. You'd go and they'd weigh it, and [inaudible] but there's that gigantic waste stream. And I've, you know, either taken a bunch of steps to get it from the owner and just throwing it away when cheap garments just aren't good anymore. Yeah, I know the wool stuff seems to last forever.

>> Yeah. Well, I think that's the problem too. We're buying cheap items. But they're also being constructed to be a cheap garment. And that's where the design component comes in here, is we have to build a high quality product from the ground up that isn't meant for a landfill, but it's meant to be used for 5, 10, 15, 20 years. Yeah, we use language in our business heritage. We want to create heritage pieces again that you can hand down to the next generation. Our snow crusher jacket is bun of those pieces. It's a 22 ounce woven wool that is intended to be on my back for 50 years, and then I hope it ends up on my 4 month old son's back when I'm buried in the ground. And if we don't want stuff to end up in a landfill, and just wasting away and contributing to, again, microplastics that are there, or, I mean, just mountains of garbage that is covered over with quote unquote dirt, and wool does that. Natural fibers do that. I mean, that's not just, well, cotton will do that. It will biodegrade as well. I mean, it's intended to do that. Leather will as well. So, there's fibers that exist in this world that will do what we actually want them to do. We just need to put our efforts towards that. It is a worthwhile endeavor.

>> I want to touch on something. Like, so far, like obviously we are, we all seem to be, and Ed too with his podcast, and the way he educates people, we all seem to be serviced, service based people. We're here to serve. We're here to share our knowledge, create something better, fight for the future we believe in. But also this is just good business.

>> Correct.

>> We are future proofing our supply chains. If you are truly a smart businessperson looking ahead, you are thinking in 10, in 20, in 30 year increments. You're not holding to the year to year profit over year. That version of business has gotten us to where we're at, thinking year to year, expecting exponentially increasing profits. That's what drives a lot of the major corporations. That's why a lot of sustainability initiatives in the major corporations that are shareholder owned fail. They might do a pilot. But if they see it dips into some of their profits, they cut that program immediately, because they live quarter to quarter reports. They live year to year profits. If they were truly thinking long term business, those supply chains, whether it's a petroleum based synthetic, or something that's reliance, you know, on a supply chain across the world, that's a very vulnerable supply chain. And it's certainly not renewable. And it's getting more and more and more scarce. So, I think the work that we're doing with natural fibers, everyone's always going to need to eat. Hides are always going to be a part of the waste stream, unless we find a home for them. Wool is a renewable natural fiber. It is just good business to make these a priority in our supply chains again.

>> It strikes me that both of y'all, you talk about Wendell Berry and the idea of like a land [inaudible]. And you think about ranchers that have been on a particular piece of property for like a hundred years. And every bit of their livelihood comes from that ground. And so it's in their best interest. They have to take care of that land. And I feel like the way y'all are talking about your business, you're thinking about, you know, making it for the long term, and taking care of those externalities, whereas I think a lot of people, they just seem disconnected from everything they're doing. And it's that, when you said that, it just, I can see your agricultural roots in your business, if that makes any sense.

>> And that was like kind of why, you're right, it was kind of the title of our talk is Sizzle for a reason, right? Like, one, we want to catch people's attention at South by Southwest when you're competing with Michelle Obama and Mark Cuban. I really hope you come to our talk. But I also mean it. We talked about this with it the other week. Farmer founded. Why? Why this concept of a farmer founded brand? Because we have the most at stake in seeing these industries not only recover, but be very strong into the future. And agriculturalists working decades and in generations we don't work in year to year. And so I think that there is a different operating system that we can bring to business that has a much larger aperture than the typical fashion CEO. And I'm trained in holistic management. I absolutely bring everything I've been taught as a land manager to how I think about building Range Revolution. So, yeah.

>> And ironically, a longer time horizon, like what you would, are supposed to use in making investments in stocks.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, forget about the ups and downs over the year. What's it going to look like 20 years from now?

>> Yep.

>> And you mentioned everybody trying to find their place in the natural world. And I've said several times on the podcast, I'm personally, you know, gratified, I find the enjoyment in this role sort of struggling academia and ranching, where I feel like my job is to work with people whose livelihoods depend on making good decisions over the long haul in the real world make those good decisions. And so the Art of Range has mostly been science translation. But, you know, I'm also personally convinced that storytelling and beauty are things that influence people, influence people's behavior, more than, you know, facts.

>> Oh, yeah, 100%. And so, you know, I feel like it's important to tell these stories, and for people to hear what people like you are doing. And what's some of the messaging that you're hoping people will catch, you know, maybe more, people sometimes, there's the saying what is caught, then taught. You have to use words to communicate. But people are also picking up a whole lot of messaging through, you know, a session like this, with a crowd that very likely knows next to nothing about ranching. At least that's my prejudiced guess, you know, based on interactions with the crowd the last day or two. What are you hoping to catch? I know you've been talking around it for a while, but

>> So, we planted last year, we planted 50 Garry oaks on our property. And if you know anything about Garry oaks, right, Garry oaks are like a keystone species that used to exist in our region in the West.

>> I didn't know that.

>> And they take 50 years to reach maturity. So, was that, you know, that wasn't, there's no real, there's no economic play in that, right? I planted those trees for my children's children. I have an opportunity to do that because of the type of operation that we run. I believe that every single person has the capacity to plant Garry oaks in their own ways. That's that I think is, you know, like most indigenous cultures teach us, you're thinking seven years ahead. Every single person has a place in the natural world. Every person has a place of steward. Every person has an opportunity to plant those Garry oaks in their own way. And whether you work for yourself or you work within another organization, like I think that that mindset, that's something that I hope people take with them. And it's not going to happen. I have to be careful, because I can get quite cerebral in my thinking about things. Like I do think it's less about changing minds, and it's more about changing hearts. And so great design, great marketing, great branding. Those are the ways that we can paint a picture that creates an emotional connection that might change hearts.

>> And I think, I want people to at least consider what they are purchasing. Take 10 seconds to ask yourself a question, like what is in this product? Do I even need this product? Right? We live in such a consumeristic society that is motivated by buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. And I want to challenge that. Obviously, every business needs customers there to buy the product so that we can continue to be viable long into the future. But it is a stewardship mentality that we talked about here today that I want people to consider. Maybe buy into. We are all stewards. We are all natural beings, like you said, Cate, we come from the ground into the ground, we are going together. There's no question about that. Every one of us is going to die. But what are we doing with our time for the moment that we're birthed, and the moment that's a time? Let's consider that seriously. We play a role to bring flourishing into this world. And the best way to do that is to pursue the natural world and to bring it to its most beneficial state. And that takes consideration. And it takes a long term horizon. And that's what I want people to consider. Like what is your role here? Take it seriously. Be a steward. It's going to be painful at times, but that's okay. Like everything that is good, it comes through a little bit of pain and suffering. And we have to be able to accept that, and to say that is going to be for my benefit, for my children's benefit, for my grandchildren's benefit, for the world's benefit. And that, you know, I'm here, obviously with Duckworth. And the big thing there is like consider, consider us, consider what Cate is doing, consider these products that are built from the ground up, natural fibers. I think a very tangible thing that I want people to consider is don't wash your clothes that often. We don't need to. We have a water crisis as well that's going on. Like let's take these things seriously. But be a steward. Like that's what I want people to really buy into. Be a steward of what we have here. That is the best way to continue the progress that we have made. And when I say progress, I mean real progress. Almost, if I can be so forward thinking, regress, let's regress to where we have a connection again with the natural world around us, and use that to the best of our ability and cause it to flourish.

>> Yeah, and our lives might actually depend on it.

>> They might.

>> Yeah, in the long run.

>> Yep.

>> And I didn't quite get to the point. We're signing up for your book list of the day. But I was just thinking when Daniel was talking, I read recently the book, I think it's by Oliver Burkeman, Four Thousand Weeks.

>> Oh, that's one of my favorites.

>> And it's this idea that we've got about, on average, 4,000 weeks to do whatever we're going to do. And, you know, a quarter of those are when you're a kid. And you alluded to having a moment a few years ago where you realized I've got to shift directions if I'm going to spend my 4,000 weeks well.

>> Yeah.

>> How do you see your role in the natural world? I could make some guesses at that based on the content of your podcast. But, you know, what's your answer to [inaudible] in all of this?

>> I think with the podcast, everything I do with the podcast is directed at myself, you know, I was saying before we started recording, like when I was 23, I was sitting in Merrill Lynch, and I would read about people like Cate and Daniel, and like, I want to be like those people. How do you do it? And so everything I do is directed at people like, you know, well meaning people who make, just don't, they just don't know. And I think with, I really do think, I think I'm a pessimist by nature, unfortunately, but I force myself to be an optimist, like I force myself. And I think that most people are good and most people just don't know. Because I think about myself. Like conservation. That's become like my whole career. And when I moved out west, I thought that to conserve land, the best case scenario is to make it like a national park. Like get the livestock out of there, no people, very limited, you know, new trails, not, you know, very limited. And then, yeah, protect it. And then as I got to know ranching families and got, started digging into regenerated agriculture and understanding how livestock plays such an important role in the grass and the ecosystems, and I just, I came, there was all this information out there that I wanted to know that I just didn't know. And so I think both of these folks, they're figuring out ways to educate people without even, without them really even knowing they're being educated. You know? Like I want a cool hoodie. And then you go on a website, and the next thing you know, you dig into it, you start realizing, oh, wait, I didn't understand that, you know, grazing can play such a big role. And so that's what I think about with myself is like how can I find people like me who are well meaning, but just not educated? And it's hard. It gets harder by the, literally by the week, because there's so much information out there. Everybody's just getting hammered. Now, whenever somebody's pet project is, or what they're very concerned about, they think that should be everybody else's first priority. I mean, I get that all day long with my podcast. People think their priority is my priority. And so it's hard to catch attention. And that's where I think it's speech to design aspect is you've got to, you've got to make great stuff that catches people's attention. And then, you know, just, the ethic of it will just kind of soak in.

>> Right.

>> I mean, I think about that with my reading all the time. Like I love reading good biographies. I like to read like Panthanzot's [phonetic] Water Thunder. You read this awesome thing, and then you finish, and you're like, oh, and now I happen to know the history of the American Southwest. It kind of sneaks in, you know? And I feel like both of these folks are doing, doing that kind of work.

>> But it also connects you internally.

>> Yeah. Oh, yeah.

>> Somebody said the person, who you are in 50 years will be based on what you read, who you interact with, you know, what music you listen to, all those things shape us.

>> Oh, sure. I mean, and that's why I'm so thankful to be sitting here, because I used to just be hanging around with real estate people all day long who were just, it was all about the commission. And [inaudible]. And now, and so if anything, I say my whole project is very selfish, because like I am, and like I'm a better person because I get to hang out with y'all, if that makes any sense.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm not used to answering questions. Instead of answering questions, I think I'm catching, I mentioned this was impromptu, I think I'm catching that the format for the panel discussion tomorrow is the podcast interview for Mountain & Prairie, where you're addressing some of these things with the two people there. And, of course, you know, as maybe said more than I should, but I'm obviously directing the conversation by the questions that you asked, the ways you set up the questions, et cetera. What are you wanting to accomplish, you know, for the Mountain & Prairie podcast?

>> My goal with Mountain & Prairie, from the very beginning, I told people this every single time before recording, I'm like the only point of this thing is I want it to be a way to tell the story of who, like if I'm talking to you, the only reason I want to do this is to that we can tell your story. And so if there's anything, if I'm going to ask anything that you don't want to answer, you tell me, we'll cut it out. If you say anything, and we're done, and you're like, I should have said that, you tell me to cut it out, like I want this to be of substance, but very positive. And you're thinking it up in business terms, it's like I want to be a very authentic, in depth marketing piece for you as a human. And so that's my goal tomorrow, is I just wanted to, that's why I get so nervous for these things. I'm like it's not, like am I an egomaniac? It doesn't have anything to do with me. It only has to do with them. And so it's, I want to tee them up to do exactly what they've been doing in here. So, it's going to be the easiest interview of my whole life, because it's just like, I can just ask one or two questions, and then they're going to go. And so like I really, and really like I do think that there are going to be a lot of people in the audience what are very curious, very well meaning, want to do the right thing, and just don't know. They have no idea about any of this [inaudible]. Daniel recommended this, well, both y'all did, American Flannel, about these folks that are trying to bring manufacturing back to the U.S. and making more flannel. And like all these facts [inaudible] underlying, I had no idea. And I'm kind of pretty close to business. And so I just think about all these folks who are coming from all over the world, and who are going to be there in person, and then listening on the podcast and afterwards. And it's like what do they need to know? How do you kind of wake them up? Does that make sense?

>> Yeah.

>> Is that what you want me to do tomorrow?

>> Yeah. Ed is the best.

>> What if I had said all that, and you're like, no [inaudible]?

>> No, you've got [inaudible]. Is it really like, you know, being an interviewer is not like a, it's not like a given, it's a skill. And so Ed is a steward of conversation. I have learned so much through his podcast. I do, I spend time walking around learning stuff on podcasts. It's a really powerful tool to just enjoy passing time. And like you said, a good book. Like a great interview, it takes you into that person's wall for a little bit. Like I love to do that. And I love that I get to learn along the way. And Ed is really one of the best at that. He's I think the first podcast interview I ever gave was with Ed in 2017, and I was 27 years old, and I just fully enjoyed the time that we had talking. And then we became friends ever since then, and we've done all kinds of cool stuff. So, when this big cultural opportunity came to speak at South by Southwest, you know, if you look through the agenda of this event, there's, I don't know, maybe three or four agriculture focused talks affixes midst thousands of conversations that [inaudible]. So, we're, you know, representing this industry at a major cultural event. There's not a lot of ad representation here. But before, there was none. So, and next year, there will be even more. So, it matters, like you said earlier, it matters to get out of our silos. It matters to get out of our little bubbles of sort of talking to everyone who's already on the same page with each other. And we have to take these conversations into cultural places, like South by Southwest, that really define a narrative of where culture is. And this conversation is big. And America is in a moment of reckoning right now, just how much of our manufacturing and sort of capacity to take care of ourselves, we've lost. With what's happening with the tariffs right now, love it or hate it, we are looking really hard at like what does America produce? What can we produce? And this country was founded upon its capacity and desire to create for itself. And actually fiber has been a very powerful part of declaring independence across all kinds of social movements. If you look to Gandhi's movement in India, it was based around cotton and the spinning wheel. So, I think this is an interesting moment. This is an interesting conversation. And fiber has this way of weaving its way throughout revolutions. So

>> Yeah, that's really interesting. Speaking of books, I read, I don't know, sometime last year, the book Alchemy of Air. And it's describing the invasion of what was called the Haber Bosch process. But the origins of it was that they were, the British were harvesting the nitrate rich [inaudible] off of the coast of Peru, because it never rains there. So, wherever the birds sit, it just piles up. And there were mountains of this stuff. But, of course, it's a finite resource. Well, the Germans were fertilizing with this bird manure that they had to ship all the way across the ocean. And with some building tension with Great Britain, who, at that point, ruled the oceans with their navies, Germany said if they decide they're going to stop us from getting fertilizer, we're going to be screwed. Maybe we should do something about that. And so the engineers and the chemists began working together to develop this Haber Bosch process, which is how we pull atmospheric nitrogen and turn it into nitrate. And the process is hugely energy intensive, because you've got to apply, you know, many, many atmospheres' worth of pressure, and apply heat, to make the conversion to a nitrate. And it still accounts for a shockingly high percentage of the world's energy usage. But, you know, there the necessity was the mother, the mother of invention, they were trying to protect themselves. And Jerry Holechek wrote an article a while back in Rangelands about rangeland health being a matter of national security. And his point was, you know, tomorrow, the world could change. There was a whole host of things that could happen that, you know, the risk managers call white swan events, where all of a sudden everything is different. Either, you know, tariffs, ships can't go, there's conflict somewhere and they've got to go around the other side of the globe, or something. And we're in a pretty vulnerable position. There's benefits to this world economy, but there's also pretty significant risks there that we see when a port strikes, or there's conflict in the Suez Canal, or, you know, you name it, it feels like it's probably a matter of national security to develop our own supply chains, which feels like probably what you're trying to get at.

>> Yep.

>> I think that's the fascinating part about the book American Flannel, is it talked about that. And COVID really revealed that in the apparel space, because we had set all of our manufacturing capabilities overseas. And nurses and doctors, the ones who are on the N95, couldn't get there. We couldn't produce that in the United States.

>> That's crazy.

>> We didn't have the ability to do that. But what it took was a coalition that was really led by a few folks associated with NCTO, the National Council of Textile Organizations, to get [inaudible] to get more of your commercial [inaudible] together to make whatever they possibly could for us. But it's wild to me that that's the world we live in, the nation that we live in, that we can't take care of ourselves with things like that. It is, it's mind boggling. And, again, that's one of the outputs of that. But it comes from agricultural standpoints as well. It's like we're so reliant on overseas food. Like let's rely on ourselves to produce high quality food. What can we do here to take care of ourselves? I think that's an important question to ask. And being able to take it from fiber for it in the apparel space is so critical to that. We can do this stuff. It just takes people that have some resiliencies and grit to say we're going to do it. And, gosh, the nation of America was really founded on that sort of attitude, was it not? Like grit and resiliency. We're going to go figure it out. Let's do it again. Like now is the time. Like there's no time like the present to actually get after this stuff. And we've got some really amazing people that are trying to do that. Cate, you're one of them. The folks from American Flannel [inaudible] are part of another group of them. And there's people that are incredibly passionate about making American apparel again. And the textile space was one of the founding industries of America. Like let's bring it back. Let's just do it. Nike doesn't need to have a claim on that phrase, let's just do it.

>> Let's really do it.

>> Let's actually do the thing. Because we can't. Like we're a nation of doers. Let's bring that attitude back.

>> There was a, I'm looking for a way to wrap this up, there's, I think the Russian author Dostoevksy was the one who said that beauty will save the world. And I've, a few times, made some weak efforts to apply that to our context. But I think, I think there's multiple aspects of beauty in what you guys are doing that are really important. One of them is what I think is a real and beautiful synergy in natural food and fiber production. Progress, with a capital P, often leads toward the pragmatic. But, you know, you follow that all the way to the end of it, and it can get kind of ugly. There was a building that my office used to be in with an old hospital. And in the kitchen, there was an old gray three pound can that had a gray label. And it had big letters on it that said NBF, 12%. Well, it was from, it was survival rations from the Cold War era when we had all these fallout shelters stocked. And it was literally a complete thing for humans. It was a 12% protein can of mush that was meant to be human food. And, you know, it made me think of the various communist countries building gray concrete structures. You know, can we live in a gray concrete building that's cheap and pathogenically sterile? Can we have scientifically developed completely in a gray can that has all of the amino acids and [inaudible] minerals necessary for human life? You know, in a hypothetical, it sort of feels like you're supposed to say yes, but I'm not even sure the answer is yes. I think the answer is, you know, we're not just bodies. And we're also not just brains on a stick. We're not just thinking things. They're connected. And, in fact, I think the Greek word for the heart, or the seat of the emotions, is something like splanchna, you know, it's this idea that our gut is literally like a second brain, you know, that the brain scientists are discovering now. And all those things are connected. So, I think we actually have to have that beauty to be healthy. And, again, you know, the Wendell Berry in me really wants to see that also be profitable and good for the American farmer. And I'm really impressed that you guys are doing a good job with that.

>> One of the most interesting panels I ended up this week, I've gotten to explore some of the other conversations. And it's this woman who is really leaning a new section of neural studies. And so the field that she has essentially created is called neural aesthetics. She wrote a book called Your Mind on, I think it's called Your Mind on Art. And it is really about the neurochemical phenomenon of what happens to our brains when we are immersed in artwork, and we are immersed in the beautiful landscape [inaudible]. Yes. And so things that we know and we understand, she's, you know, putting some scientific data behind. It's a really interesting field. And so like what you're getting at right now, like beauty is not a frivolous, you know, luxury. It is a very deep part of our needs. Beautiful spaces. Beautiful products, beautiful food, beautiful landscapes, beautiful communities. It is a deep human need [inaudible]. And so I'm with you, I don't want to eat gray slop, and I don't want to live in cement buildings. And I don't think anybody, you know, does. So, let's help everybody else that is on this train to kind of keep things beautiful.

>> Yeah.

>> Fight for the future we believe in.

>> My last question, which I sometimes forget, to your point, Ed, about [inaudible] tactics, I always mean to ask, is there anything you wanted to say that I never got around to asking you, you never felt like there was an end to throw it in there somewhere?

>> I think I'll just sign off with, I mean, support American made, support American agriculture. We need people to get behind us on what we're doing. We cannot do it alone. So, let's link arms and get after it, as Americans here, and take care of ourselves.

>> We should end this conversation with your network.

>> Yeah, that's a good word. Well, thank you all. This was unexpected and delightful. And I'm thrilled to have been able to visit with you for a while.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you, Tip.

>> Thanks, Tip. Appreciate it.

>> It was awesome.

>> Thank you for listening to the Art of Range podcast. Links to websites or documents mentioned in each episode are available at artofrange.com. And be sure to subscribe to the show through Apple Podcasts, Podbean, Spotify, Stitcher, or your favorite podcast app, so that each new episode will automatically show up in your podcast feed. Just search for artofrange. If you are not a social media addict, don't start now. If you are, please like or otherwise follow the Art of Range on Facebook, LinkedIn, and X, formerly Twitter. We value listener feedback. If you have questions or comments for us to address in a future episode, or just want to let me know you're listening, send an e mail to show@artofrange.com. For more direct communication from me, sign up for regular e mail from the podcast on the homepage at artofrange.com. This podcast is produced by Conners Communications in the College of Agricultural, Human, and Natural Resource Sciences at Washington State University. The project is supported by the University of Arizona and funded by sponsors. If you are interested in being a sponsor, send an e mail to show@artofrange.com.

>> The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by guests of this podcast are their own and does not imply Washington State University's endorsement.

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