AoR 163: Stockwater Monitoring Technologies and Natural Capital with Andrew Coppin, RanchBot

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>> Welcome to the Art of Range, a podcast focused on rangelands and the people who manage them. I'm your host, Tip Hudson, range and livestock specialist with Washington State University Extension. The goal of this podcast is education and conservation through conversation. Find us online at artofrange.com.

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Welcome back to the Art of Range. My guest today is Andrew Coppin. He is the CEO and co founder of Ranchbot, a company that has been on the leading edge of agricultural technologies, at least some recent ones. I do realize that the barbed wire fence at one time was an innovative agricultural technology. But we do have to change with the times. We happen to be visiting today in person at my office in Ellensburg, Washington. We're doing this interview not because I have an interest in product endorsements. My position was the university prohibits that. But because the limiting factor in grazing management all over the semi arid portion of the North American continent is stock water. And there have not been that many breakthroughs in stock water technology in a while. And I get the impression that this might be one of them. And I have said I don't do product endorsements, but I do endorse people. And a number of people have said that Andrew and I should talk. So, today we're talking. Andrew, welcome to the show.

>> No, it's great to be here, Tip. Thanks for having me.

>> You don't sound like you're from around here. What is your background? And maybe you get that question all the time, but what's your background and how did you, what was the impetus to start a company doing water?

>> Yeah, so I grew up in Australia. And I spent a lot of time, we had farms and ranches in the west coast of Australia as a kid. And spent a lot of time in the country. Of course I didn't, I didn't know back then when I was in my formative years that I was going to be sitting here today. But as fate and life would have it, you know, I actually spent most, 20 years of my career working in corporate finance and investment banking. And then about 10 years ago, decided to sort of go back to, you know, look for alternative things in my second career. And I decided I'd investigate the ag tech sector, because I have, you know, fond memories of growing up, you know, in farming and ranching in Western Australia as a kid. I didn't, of course, as a kid, I didn't realize, you know, I remember cursing my old man for sending me out to the middle of nowhere. And in Australia, the middle of nowhere is really the middle of nowhere. You know, to ride horses, to chase bulls, and, you know, drive around checking water that sort of 95% of the time didn't need checking. But for the 5% of times that it does, it was critical. And obviously today as I sit here running a fairly material technology company that's solving water management problems for over 12,000 ranchers, it's funny how life journey takes you, you know, takes you on these things. Because if I didn't have that early teenager experience of working in and around farming and ranching, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be sitting here today. So, that's sort of the genesis of the, you know, the why for me. And I guess 10 years ago, I met my co founder, Craig, who was a technologist, and he was looking at remote monitoring solutions in farming and ranching. And I knew enough about ranching from those early days, and knew enough people to sort of be dangerous. And we joined forces, and, you know, worked for three years to try and solve the problems that we solve today.

>> Yeah, that story is interesting. It reminds me of something that I've heard Dr. Karen Launchbaugh say multiple times in talking about fencing technologies, you know, she grew up in the Dakotas and said she often got sent out to check the cows. And she likes to say checking the cows didn't take very long at all. But finding them could take a really long time. And that travel might be a valuable use of your time, you know, depending on how you're, a person has minded their observations and other things that can be accomplished with that two hour trip to the back pasture one way. But it might not be a good use of your time. Or somebody working for you who is less productive with their windshield time, that you're paying them to listen to Chris LeDoux for four years, and all they do is discover that, yeah, the water is fine. Or it's not, in which case that trip was probably worthwhile, as you said, and you can't take the risk when you have a lot of animals, depending on stock water, to just assume that everything is fine. Because if it's not, you have a major disaster.

>> Yeah, we sort of thought, you know, that was one of the, you know, it's funny how things seem obvious. But one of the epiphanies that we had sort of seven years ago was, you know, was this driving to check water that doesn't need checking. But one minute after we've checked it, we still don't know what's happening. And, you know, when I now talk, travel around the U.S., and I live and work in Texas, and based out of there, and I obviously spend a lot of time meeting with ranchers and talking to them about their problems, and as obvious as that sounds, that we drive to check water that doesn't need checking, for the 5% of times that it does, that one minute after we do it, we don't know, for most people, that's sort of like an awakening, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, right, I've done that three times a week for 30 years, and I've never really thought about it that way. So, it's just this change of thinking that's required, that there are better, more efficient ways to do things. And, you know, and there's better ways to solve problems. But there is a little bit of, you know, Henry Ford in this problem, you know, we don't know if we've got a problem until we've fixed it.

>> Yeah, and you mentioned in our pre interview conversation that if somebody, if Henry Ford had asked people back in the late 1800s what they wanted, they would have said, you know, less friction on the carriage wheel, or a faster horse. They wouldn't have thought of a horseless carriage.

>> Correct, yeah. The problem is embedded in the job. And I have actually had people sort of say, so, Andrew, this whole concept of remote monitoring and control of my ranch, I mean, are you trying to steal my job? And, you know, that couldn't be further from the truth or my mind. I'm trying to give ranchers time to do the other things that are important on the ranch. You know, I've never met a rancher, and I've met tens of thousands, that's got time on their hands. I've never met a rancher that's got a bottom on their to do list. They're all busy people. They're all got 10 or 15 things on their mind. They're all sort of bosses by nature. You know, you've got to think about feed, you've got to think about cattle, you've got to think about work, you've got to think about trucks, you've got to think about horses.

>> You've got to spin all the plates.

>> You've got to spin all the plates. And then there's this sort of, this water thing that's happening in the background. And what I've sort of learned from hundreds of discussions with ranchers is, you know, they're actually carrying a lot of stress and concern that maybe many aren't even aware about, of this water. So, we're sort of climbing the wall of worry about water until we get to our breaking point of, okay, it's the third day of 100 degrees, and I've now got to go and check. And then I relieve that stress. But a few minutes afterwards, I just start climbing the wall of worry again. So, obviously the larger the operation, the more water points, the more livestock, the larger the worry. And, you know, so I think that's sort of at the crux of this sort of problem that we've been seeking to solve.

>> And what is the solution? I mean, I've mentioned the company name, but we haven't talked about what Ranchbot does.

>> Yeah, so, I mean, we've evolved a lot over the last 10 years. The first three years, we were just, it was really just Craig in the garage, you know, with the mortar and pestle and the Bunsen burner, trying to work out what to build. And I was talking to the [inaudible] rancher. Seven years ago, we sort of created the first public version of our device, which was a remote monitoring device that would monitor the water in real time, but only communicate with the rancher if there was a problem, and the problem was the water was too high, the water was too low, or the water was falling too fast. So, assessing gradient. And what we figured we needed was a device that could monitor all the time, but only tell me when I got a problem. I don't want a, I don't want something telling me every hour it's okay, it's okay, it's okay, because I'll just stop using it.

>> Ignore it, right.

>> But I do want to know if the water is overflowing. And I do want to know if it's too low. And I do want to know if it's falling at greater than, you know, I don't know, eight inches an hour is my normal usage. I want to know if it's falling at anything faster than that.

>> Right.

>> So, we built a device that would do that. And we connected it to satellite so it would work anywhere, where there was no cellular communication, and it could tell a rancher, in real time, back to their cell phone or their desktop, or back to ranch headquarters, that I have a leak right now. So, we turned this whole, I'll know I've got a problem when I run into it, into, I'll know I've got a problem as soon as I've got a problem. But within seconds or minutes, not within hours or days. So, I had this huge benefit of not only saving water, which we can't afford to lose, but obviously huge animal health benefits. And, of course, massive cost savings in driving around all the time, checking water that didn't need checking. So, that's where we started. I guess over the last three years, that evolved. And we did a thing that I don't know if that many companies do these days, but we listened to our customers and said, and, well now we've solved that problem, what are the other things that, you know, you need us to do? And the number one thing in Australia became, well, now that I'm not going out to check the water in the back pasture, I'm also not checking my rain gauges enough. Because the rain gauges on the post right near the water storage out at the back pasture. So, we made an electronic rain gauge. And we've now got thousands of rain gauges across pastures. Because, as all ranchers know, what happens in the south pasture is not what's happening in the north. So, we created rain gauges that would talk to Ranchbot. Then we connected them to water flow and water pressure. Then we connected them to pumps so you could turn pumps on and off remotely. And so on and so forth. So, today, we have about 17 different things that can talk to a Ranchbot device. That's all about managing infrastructure, and particularly water infrastructure, on the ranch.

>> Yeah. It seems to me like the obvious cost benefit or savings to the ranch is that all of that kind of work, kind of like checking the cows, involves, you know, time and travel. Even if, even if you don't value your time, you've got fuel and the wear and tear on depreciable equipment, you know, all kinds of things. Now, there's some obvious cost savings there. You know, what are the other ways that you see some benefits, you know, where somebody is going to ask the question, why is this worth whatever I'm paying for it? Aside from not having to climb that wall of worry every three days, as you mentioned.

>> Yeah, well, I mean, this is, this is a truism of ranching. And not many ranchers sort of think about, you know, what is my hourly rate? You know, what is my time value? And, you know, I often say to them, I ask them that question so that we can work out how many hours a week they spend driving to check water. And, obviously, if you don't have an answer, you go, well, I'm a rancher, I don't think like that, you know, well, there is still a cost to your time. So, if a day worker is $20 an hour, are you two or three or four times more productive than your average day worker? Because that's probably more indicative of your time. So, you could be, really should be charging yourself to the business at $80 or an hour, or $100 an hour. So, this true labor cost, obviously wear and tear on motor vehicles is huge. Gas is not cheap. I mean, you know, we're living in a world where we're trying to, you know, have less impact on nature and leave our cattle alone so they can do what they do best, drink water and eat grass and put on wait. So, the reality is if you don't need to drive out there as often, you know, you're going to material less impact on nature, material less impact on the animals, and significant cost savings. Then you've got the water that you didn't lose. And then you've got the animals that you didn't lose. Because they were never without water. So, they're the immediate and obvious things. And then I think, yes, there's a lot of, a lot of other ones that are intangible. The stress, the opportunity cost, you know, what else did I get to do? Was it more time for the business? Was it more time for roping or hunting or the family or the church? I mean, not many times in your life can you say you get back time. And so when I hear from our customers that we save them, you know, material time, money, and piece of mind, I mean, it's this piece of mind and time concepts that, you know, I'm just so, I'm so, you know, honored to work with the ranching community to be able to give them something that's really hard to get back in life. And I just, I hear that everywhere we go.

>> You mentioned, I think, on something that I read about Ranchbot, that you called it a disruptive technology. How would you define a disruptive technology? I'm not in the business world. You know, is it just the new buzzword that makes people pay attention, because it makes them think you're gutsy? I suspect there's some definition behind that. But I actually don't know what it is, so I'm curious what you mean by that.

>> Well, I mean, I think, you know, I don't mean disruptive, you know, disorderly, or, you know, hostile way. I just mean that it's changing the status quo. I mean, today, across the U.S., 500,000 people, you know, half a million people are going to drive to check water on a farm or a ranch that does not need checking 95% of the time.

>> Yeah.

>> And they're going to do it for that 5% of the time. And so if there's a better way to do that, that significantly reduces their cost and their burden, and even gets a better result, well, I think that is disruptive. And the sort of, you know, again, not knowing that there's a problem to solve until you've solved it, you know, analogies I'll give you is, you know, back in the 80s, no one thought that we needed a cell phone. You know, I remember when cell phones first came out. And people thought that, I don't need one of them. Why would I need one? I've got a perfectly good phone at the ranch headquarters, or, you know, my home. I don't want to carry a phone around with me. But here we are 30 odd years later, and I don't know too many people that don't have a cell phone, and that aren't, you know, reading the news and doing their banking and doing a whole lot of other things on a phone. So, these things aren't obvious until they've changed. And then you approach them. I mean, but, you know, remember, phones took a cycle to be disruptive. I mean, early, it was just carrying one with you. Then I remember they introduced text messages on phones, and we thought, why on Earth would you want to text someone? I mean, you know, how, how stupid are these people? We've going to have a phone? Phones are to call people. Why would I want to write something? And now people do more text than speaking. So, and then it evolved to apps and app stores and different things. So, technology is an evolution. It's not something that just suddenly arrives. But more often than not, it has to disrupt a status quo to change how people think. And it's about awareness of the problem, you know? And at the moment, we're living in a world where there's just not a lot of awareness in the problem, because the problem is hidden in the job.

>> Right, you don't discover the problem until you experience the solution.

>> Correct.

>> And then realize there's a problem. Yeah, I was thinking too about other benefits. I think people often don't realize to what extent animal forage intake is related to water consumption as well. And when you see animals that are, you know, pawing in a muddy seep somewhere, trying to get a little bit of a drink, that affects how much they're willing to eat. And if you've got 300 animals that are all running around, trying to find someplace to, you know, get a sip out of a mud puddle, or a quarter of a mud puddle, having fresh water really makes a really significant difference in animal intake, weight gains, performance.

>> Yeah, I think there's been a lot of research done now by many a good university here in the United States, and in Australia, and no doubt in Europe as well, about the health impacts of, you know, clean, fresh water on livestock production. And, you know, just that there is that awareness around that now, and that we know that there can be better ways. I mean, you know, water is the number one thing. I mean, we've spent so much time thinking about how to grow a better cow. I would say billions of dollars have gone into genetics of building a better cow. You know, stronger frame, more, more meat, you know, less disease. We've spent billions of dollars about how to grow better, to make better feed. But we haven't really invested a lot in the number one input, which is water, because they can, they can live without feed for a few days, but they can't live without water. And so this whole concept around water as a key input, understanding it more, managing it better, really getting into the data analysis of water consumption and [inaudible] cattle, I think that's going to be a very big part of creating this sustainable resilient supply chain of food in the future, because, remember, the macroenvironment here is, we've only got the planet, we've only got so much soil, so much water. We don't have more of it. Yet we're going to have a lot more people. And so we're going to have to produce more food, not just red meat protein, but more food entirely on the planet, you know, at a time when there's increased weather volatility. So, you know, back in the day of, you know, Rancher Joe dip fully into his pocket, bulk, and saying, I think this feels a little bit like 1974, you know, what did I do in '74? I think I'll do that again. Well, I mean, I think, you know, now we're having '74 and '94 and 2004 all in one year, you know? So, we have to, we're going to have to use data to make better informed decisions about our grazing and our pasture management. And it will never remove, in my view, it won't remove rancher intuition, but it will help make a lot better informed discussions.

>> Yeah.

>> Decisions, sorry.

>> Yeah, some good stuff that I've read about the use of tools and technology in general is that a good tool enhances uniquely human abilities to make decisions. And this seems like a good example of that. Virtual fence seems like a good example of a potentially disruptive technology. And I think the jury is still out on that, you know, in 15 years, we'll know a little bit more. But that was a situation where I think market changes have forced people to rethink how they're doing what they're doing. You know, you have fences that were strung up across some really big wide open spaces, and it took a lot of effort. And because of that, it's sort of cost prohibitive to do the sort of regular maintenance. You know, for example, if the ag economist says you should replace 1/20 of your fence every year, so that every fence gets replaced every 20 years, that doesn't actually happen. And so, you know, what happens is we get to 2025, and there are fences that were put up in 1955 that are now no longer viable. You can't just stand them back up and, you know, prop up the post anymore. It's actually just a failed fence. But the cost of replacing that is, you know, at least around here, anywhere from 25 to 55,000 dollars on remote locations. And now, and, of course, that mile of fence is only good in the three weeks that the cows are actually in that pasture. And the rest of the time, it's just a problem for wildlife movements, for, you know, you name it. And so the change in the cost of fence and the age of this truly older technology was such that the market really drove, at least interest in potential other solutions. And, of course, we've got five, six, seven different, you know, virtual fence companies out there that are all trying to skin the cat a different way.

>> Yes.

>> And we'll see how it works. But the market changed, economics changed, circumstances changed, such that it forced that. Have you seen some kind of a market shift or a culture shift that is making people interested in these water monitoring technologies?

>> Yeah, I mean, look, we are seeing that. And I think it's a little bit different in different markets. I mean, I would say in Australia, which is a very big landscape, you know, that, you know, you have to learn to solve problems if you live 500 miles from the nearest town. So, Australia has been a good innovator of on ranch technology. And things probably, you know, we've got about 10% of the ranchers in Australia use our technology now, and it's sort of becoming the standard of, you know, of course you do that, you know, why wouldn't you. Certainly in the bigger operators. But even in small ranches that just have one or two people, or one or two water points, but they're not there. But also I think, you know, my view on ag tech or ranch tech and where it's come from and where it's going to is, you know, back in the year 2000, remember we had the tech boom. We could have put a silicon chip in a matchbox and sold it for 100 million. But most of that technology was fundamentally flawed, and it subsequently failed. And then in the, you know, 2010, we had another wave of technology. And now here we are in the 2020s. And technology, those things that arose out of the ashes of 2000 tech boom have become real and have substance. I really feel like ag tech and ranch tech is the same, you know, the sad thing is that ranchers were sold a bit of snake oil back in the early 2000s, things that overpromised and underdelivered. But that we're now in another era of technology, including virtual fence, remote monitoring, and control, AI cameras and computer vision that are really going to get material traction, and are going, you know, they're the right price.

>> Adding real value.

>> They're adding real value. It's no longer just an, oh, that's an experiment for someone else. It's that you need to do this to stay up, if you are in the business of growing red meat protein, and you wish to make money out of it, you know, if that's the, if the profit imperative is there. So, it's really exciting times. And, you know, you call out virtual fencing, and the stuff that we're doing, you know, with different technology merging water data with soil and pasture data, thinking about how, what's the optimum grazing period in this pasture, based on all known inputs? People are developing algorithms around that. And, you know, you might choose one algorithm over the other based upon where you are, or who you want to follow. And then there's, you know, identifying individual cattle, and whether they're well or not, whether they drank or not, and what they weigh, you know, without even having to touch them. I mean, I think all these things are going to become real commercial going concerns over the next five to ten years, so it's a really exciting time for innovation in ranching.

>> Yeah, one of the things that encourages me too in, as a, I don't know if it's innovation or not, but a shift kind of in the global marketplace, is, now, we've talked for years about different systems that might be able to pay for ecosystem services, you know, where you had people that are managing large land areas that are providing pretty significant public environmental benefits. This is a public good that's being maintained by private individuals on private land where they historically have essentially paid all the expenses to maintain the private land, which is providing public benefits, like clean water. And it seems that we now have several different, several different opportunities for landowners and grazers to be compensated in some way, or rewarded, you know, for this, for this care of land. How do you see that playing out with some of these new technologies? You know, for example, I'm seeing various companies that are interested in animal geolocation, or various sensor systems to, you know, to document change in the land. Some of these carbon companies have measuring devices that are attempting to measure carbon flux, and whether or not the land is storing carbon in a stable manner, and/or adding carbon to the ground, and how that matches up with, and using different systems to verify animal grazing management that is contributing to that. How do you see Ranchbot fitting into that sort of new social economic ecosystem?

>> Yeah, well, I mean, I think, I think that is, while it might be early days in this sort of nature neutral accounting, I mean, there is definitely a real trend, and not just a passing fad in my view, a real underlying economic imperative that large investors in global food companies want to see those companies delivering food to the planet in a sustainable and resilient way, that is nature neutral. And when I say nature neutral, I mean if you are an excessive user of water, then you should buy water credits to offset your excessive use. But if you're an underutilizer of water, you should be able to sell your additional water to someone else that needs to buy it. And so we are seeing the evolution of water markets. We're seeing the evolution of carbon markets. Of course Australia has sort of been a leader in soil carbon markets, where a rancher can be paid for sequestering more carbon into the soil. So, for having better soil, you know, being rewarded for that. And now we're starting to see biodiversity markets, where people can buy, buy diversity credits. We're sort of watching all of this with interest, because we feel ranchers are the largest custodians of natural capital on the planet outside of governments. And that certainly 90, 80% of ranchers I know are trying to, you know, respect the land, understand nature, they need to work in sympathy with nature. And they're trying to leave the planet and their operation better than they found it. Normally for the benefit of their children and their children's children. I think that's sort of embedded in a lot of ranchers' reason to [inaudible]. So, you know, I think, I think this is an exciting evolution. I think it's probably going to take some time. It's a mark, these markets are going to mature over the next 5, 10, 15 years. But I live in hope that Ranchbot could help ranchers verify natural capital. So, to prove that you're a good custodian of water, of soil, of pastures, of biodiversity, you will need to gather data from the field and the pasture. So, in the short term, we say that we're allowing ranchers to run a significantly more productive and profitable operation, be a better custodian of water, and of their animals. But that that's going to evolve into, you know, the sharing of data across other areas of their operation, be that soil, pasture, rainfall, weather, climate, and biodiversity. So, there's a lot of really interesting work happening there. And we're involved in projects with about seven different universities, whether that's on methane reduction by, you know, water, putting additives into water, or carbon soil projects, or, you know, or heat stress assessments on animals to provide ranchers with real time warnings around, you know, Cattle Comfort Index, and that sort of thing. So, it's a really interesting space that we're very close to.

>> Yeah, that just made me think of a few other things. You talked about several different products that Ranchbot makes. I'm just imagining lots of different kinds of stock water facilities, you know, where people have stock ponds and dirt tanks and dump truck tire tanks and concrete tanks, and, you know, you name it. What are some of the other, what are some of the other sensors that are out there? I'm also wondering, at least in the South, sometimes you have a problem with water temperature, where if the water has been, it doesn't cycle, it isn't flowing, and sits for too long, you could walk and get hot enough, and the animals don't want to drink it. Do you have ways of measuring temperature? What are some of the other products that you have to monitor water?

>> Yeah, it's a great question. And, you know, interestingly, we do an annual survey of all of our customers and sort of ask them, you know, here's 10 things that you've sort of talked to us about over the year, you know, rank them from number one to ten of the things that are most important for you. And we try and deliver the top two or three every year. We just did that survey a few weeks ago. And there's a lot of interest in water temperature, water quality, and in, you know, ice, detecting icing events and things. I mean, obviously, in Australia, we don't have too many issues with icing events. But across vast tracts of the United States, you know, we have snow on the coast, on the Gulf Coast of Texas this year, you know, and many, many troughs, you know, and I went out and broke off some of the trough, you know, in the ranch next to me in Fort Worth. So, being able to detect icing events, look at water temperature, both for hot and cold, and water quality, is certainly on our roadmap of things that we are looking to do. In fact, we were doing trials not far from here in Oregon this winter just gone for looking at icing events and water temperature issues in drinkers and troughs and how to manage heaters, turn heaters on and off remotely. It's sort of like turning your pump on and off remotely. Those sort of things in the middle of winter, in the middle of a blizzard, I'd just prefer to know if I've got a problem than have to drive there and, you know, sort it out. Or at least, you know, have I got power at the barn, even though I've got power at the headquarters? They may not be one in the same thing. So, yes, we're seeing a lot of evolution of different things around water management. And, you know, we're monitoring water down wells to assess the movements of aquifers. We're monitoring reservoirs for, you know, regular tree, you know, reporting of different reservoirs and ponds, as sure as we're monitoring, you know, thousands of drinkers for cattle. So, we have different tools for different jobs. But it's all around monitoring water and water infrastructure.

>> If somebody wants to know more about these products, and is not aware of anybody near them that's selling it, where can they learn about the Ranchbot systems?

>> Yeah, well, you can Google it, or should I say, ask ChatGPT. These days, I'm not sure. You know, or on our website at www dot ranch dash bot dot com. And, you know, we've got people around, all around the country here now. I've sort of made a point of hiring rancher folk who live and work on the land and know the people on the land. And, you know, we've got people from here in Washington all the way to, you know, Southern Texas, that can help ranchers get their heads around this technology evolution that's occurring. You know, I've tried, you know, I really try and make sure our team understand that, you know, this is just one of a number of different technology solutions, and that our job is to try and help ranchers run better operations and be open minded about, you know, the problems they're looking to solve, and how we can do that well for them. And so we're working on a lot of integrations with other technology, with grazing apps, with soil and pasture managers, and with individual animal managers, because no one is going to want seven apps to run the ranch. But I think if you're thinking about, you know, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, put my toe in the water on some sort of technology, I think, you know, certainly remote monitoring and control of the ranch is a sort of really easy entry point to start getting your head around I can do things different. And it solves a couple of the really major problems that I hear from 99% of ranchers, which is getting labor is hard and expensive. And running my truck is expensive. Wear and tear, gas. And I never have time. So, it ticks a lot of boxes as a really easy entry point to thinking about doing things a bit differently.

>> Mhmm. I don't really like canned closing questions. But one good one is, is there anything you wanted to talk about that I didn't ask about? Because I'm not that familiar with what you're doing.

>> Well, you know, I mean, I think, as I said, I think I'm really excited about, you know, ranch technology. I think if we look at the market today and the price of cattle, I mean, there's never been such an imperative to safeguard those assets. You know, want $3,000 a head. I don't know what's happening at the sale today, but it seems like the pressure and the price is going up. So, we've got a really, really valuable asset that needs safeguarding, both from, you know, the temperature and the climate and from theft. I want to know my cattle are drinking when I'm not there. And, you know, this technology really is a no brainer for that. And I think, you know, look, I would just say to ranchers and your listeners, you know, just do one thing differently this year, just try and do one thing. Take a step in that direction. So much of this technology, whether it's ours, or the weighing technology, or the virtual fencing technology, or, you know, some of the individual animal technology, is really quite advanced. Now, these programs, you know, some of the software management programs for managing your herds and the way we are doing for managing infrastructure, I mean, they've got real substance. They're not, they're not lab experiments. You know, they're looking after tens of thousands of ranchers, as we are. So, you know, I just advocate for trying to do something different in the business, because if we keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting to get a different result, well, we know what that's called. And, you know, it's a great and exciting time to think about some innovation.

>> Yeah, I agree. Andrew, thanks for your time. This was wonderful.

>> No, absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

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