Beni Paulson is a North Dakota rancher who breeds, trains, and sells bucking bulls. He also raises beef cattle and produces country-western music that is more western than eastern. He sings of what he knows. And he's learned a thing or two about grazing to heal pieces of the northern Great Plains that were degraded through cropping and overgrazing. If you've never heard of the American Bucking Bull breed . . . I hadn't . . . tune in to this interview.
The Art of Range Podcast is supported by the Idaho Rangeland Resources Commission; Vence, a subsidiary of Merck Animal Health; and the Western Extension Risk Management Education Center.
Transcript
[ Music ]
>> Welcome to the Art of Range, a podcast focused on rangelands and the people who manage them. I'm your host, Tip Hudson, range and livestock specialist with Washington State University Extension. The goal of this podcast is education and conservation through conversation. Find us online at artofrange.com.
[ Music ]
Welcome back to the Art of Range. My guest today is Beni Paulson. He's a musician and a rancher in North Dakota. There are not many musicians who are also cowboys. And fewer still that manage land and cattle in the real world. Chris LeDoux was one of those, at least he was a good cowboy, and he lived in the West instead of Nashville. Beni is one of those. Chris had wide respect from real ranchers, and was respected by other country artists. And I kind of get that feel of you, Beni. Welcome to the show.
>> It was an extreme honor to be on the show with you. But now after seeing that, it is a major honor, because Chris LeDoux was my hero in music.
>> Yeah.
>> And in rodeo. And just because he's also just a great guy. And just wanted to live life right, do the right thing, and he treated people good and with respect. So, thank you for that. That's awesome.
>> Yeah, you're welcome. I think Wylie Gustafson is also one of those. He used to ranch outside of Colfax, which is in Eastern Washington, and moved to Montana a few years ago. But doesn't he also rope?
>> I'm not as familiar with the name. I know, yeah, I don't know to what level, I guess, to speak to that.
>> Yeah, I'm curious. How common is that? We'll get to a bunch of questions. But I'm curious, how common is it to have somebody who's a professional musician, and also a rancher, and a rodeo cowboy?
>> I don't, it's not very common. Obviously, in the radio world, most of the country music you hear on the radio, them guys have no ties, have maybe even never seen a farm.
>> Right.
>> Or a ranch or a cow or know what a native range is supposed to look like or any of that. So, at a high level, I think it's very uncommon. And I hope to be at that high level someday and be able to tell our story through music that way. You know, there's a lot of, you go back to the old days, all the, everybody did music, all the ranchers and farmers played music. So, at certain levels, I think it's a little common.
>> People used to have to make their own music. You couldn't just throw a tape in or turn on Spotify.
>> Right, right.
>> Yeah.
>> So, yeah, and to, you know, that's my goal, is to be one of those guys and be able to tell the story of what we're doing through the music. And getting to do all the things I love to do.
>> Yeah. Because of that, I'm not quite sure where to start. So, you spent time as a bull rider, competitive rodeo. And you're a rancher. And you've been doing music. Which of those came first?
>> The bull riding came first. That was, that was my first passion. And obviously meaning a young man's sport, I kind of on purpose focused on riding bulls early in life, because I knew that you couldn't do that long. I knew I'd be able to play music forever essentially.
>> Yeah.
>> And I was very passionate about riding bulls. So, that, between those two, that kept me focused on there. And now that those days are gone, now I get to sing about it, and also sing about ranching and cows and bulls while doing music.
>> We're at your place, which is near Richardson, South Dakota. Did you grow up here?
>> North Dakota, I actually grew up about an hour. Well, I grew up about a half hour away from here.
>> Okay.
>> So, my whole life, I've been in this area. I've been on this place about 13 years. Me and my wife bought this place about 13 years ago. It's about 20, 20 miles from where I originally grew up, I guess, so yeah, I've always been Western North Dakota, always been dealing with North Dakota winters, North Dakota rangelands, North Dakota animals, and all that. So, that's what I'm familiar with.
>> Yeah, I heard just a touch of [inaudible] a minute ago. I probably can't even mimic it, because I'm from the South. But
>> Yeah?
>> Yeah, there's just a little bit of a North Dakota
>> Yeah, we're pretty close to Canada here. I've got a lot of friends from Canada. I used to ride bulls in Canada a lot. So, I'm a big fan of Canada.
>> Yeah.
>> But also we're pretty darn close to there.
>> Huh. One of the only other guys that I know who rode [inaudible] was from Canada. He's actually a, he probably doesn't listen to the podcast, but he's a pesticide compliance inspector with the Washington State Department of Agriculture. But he's, yeah, quite a colorful guy. Really interesting person.
>> Yeah, Canadians are, they're so nice, but still aggressive, and just fun having.
>> Yeah, and there's way more ranching in Canada than people realize as well.
>> There's just a lot of land up there.
>> Yeah. Well, how did you get into bull riding?
>> Well, I guess
>> Because not everyone does that.
>> No. It's an addiction, I guess, just like anything. But I got into it, because my dad put me on a sheep on a kid's rodeo when I was four years old, and I stayed on and won. And I think I was addicted to that feeling of winning from there on. I just wanted more of that. That's all I could decide why anybody would be so stupid as to make a living riding bulls. But, so I just, you know, it worked for me at a young age, so I just kept pursuing it and kept progressing and worked hard at it and it was just my thing. And I think I just wanted that feeling of that accomplishment, you know, to conquer a 2,000 pound animal that wants to, one, buck you off, two, stomp you in the ground, three, maybe horn you, or whatever, and then to be successful at that, and then have thousands of people cheering for you, win money doing it, get to travel the world for it, it's an addiction. And I think it's another reason I'm passionate about music and ranching, because I put so much energy and passion into riding bulls that I don't know any other way. So, when I rode bulls, I wanted to be the best I could be. When I play music, I want to be the best I can be. And if I'm raising cattle and ranching, I want to be the best I can be. And that's why I get to talk to guys like you that are the best. And I want to learn from the best and what I can do to be better every day.
>> Now, how long did you spend riding bulls competitively?
>> I rode bulls professionally for about 10 years. I rode for 15 years total. Somewhere in there. But professionally, I made a living at it for about 10.
>> Yeah, yeah. So, you made enough to keep going at it without looking for other ways to support the habit?
>> I did. I still worked some, because there's some downtime. And there was sometimes where I didn't really work. I started building a cow herd with my dad at a pretty young age, so I could just leave the cattles with him and go rodeoing, I guess. But, yeah, I worked hard at it. I made a living. And then when I was at the top level, I was in the PBR. I made the PBR world finals. And then I had sponsors and stuff too. So, that helps it all out.
>> One of Chris LeDoux's great lines was when you ride your last one, make sure it's your best one. Did that originate with him? Did he write that? Or was that a saying that he was just parroting in the song?
>> I think it's a saying. It's kind of an old timer thing.
>> Yeah. And then he sang about it.
>> Yeah. And it's funny you say that because I, I always wanted the National Finals Rodeo to be my last one. And when I was getting to that point where I had to retire, it wasn't going to be, but my last one was at the Dodge National Circuit Finals in Pocatello, Idaho, which is one of the biggest rodeos you can do. It's a finals. You have to qualify for it. Because I, because of that song, I always wanted to end on a good note. That, and I traveled with some guys that were older that I watched ride bulls for two to three years long Yours respectfully than they should have and put on a brace. It takes them an hour to get all their braces put on and get bucked off in two seconds, and then they're sore. And I'm like, why would you guys do this? Like you're putting yourself at risk. You're not winning anything. It's painful to watch. So, I also didn't want to be that. But another line from Chris LeDoux is eating pork and beans out of a can. He sang about rodeoing and the hardships of rodeoing, but loving it. So, I was always pretty successful. But I spent one or two summers traveling by myself, eating pork and beans out of the trunk of my car. Just because Chris sang about it. Because I just wanted to live that life that he sang about. That's the power, and that's the power of music. That's the power of a good guy that's successful. And that's why I love the opportunity with music to hopefully harness that, tell the world a little bit about what we're doing out here in rural America; feeding the world, taking care of our environment.
>> I feel like that is one of the things that makes, it's interesting to me that in a country where, you know, I think less than 5%, maybe more like 2% of people are involved in agriculture at all. You still have pretty wide interest in rodeo as entertainment. And significant interest in ranching. And I think part of that is this perceived connection, you know, with the real world and managing natural lands in a way that doesn't, you know, we're producing food in places where you're also producing mule deer habitat and pheasant habitat and feed for everything else out there. Did you say that your dad had a ranch, and that was, so once you were done bull riding, how did you decide what to do next?
>> I guess I never, I had never thought about it. I had never, from the time I was six years old, I never questioned if I was going to be a bull rider. It's just what I was going to do. And I guess I've never thought about that. But now that you say that, I don't think I ever once in my life even questioned if I was going to do anything other than ranch.
>> I see.
>> It's just I love it, I grew up doing it, it's what my whole family did, it's all I really knew or wanted to know. I mean, I got a bachelor's degree in business administration, so I could have done other things. And I did drive truck here and there and build fence with a fencing company and other things. But I was always ranching also. And always was striving to just ranch. So, yeah, I guess I never, I never decided to ranch. I just never decided that I wasn't going to ranch. It was just, it was always the plan.
>> Yeah. And with ranching, you might have to keep one foot in rodeo by raising bucking bulls. When did that start?
>> Actually, 2018, so seven years ago.
>> So, pretty recent.
>> Yeah, pretty recent. I was always going to kind of stay away from that. I teach bull riding, and that's kind of always by my way of staying involved with my addiction of rodeo and bull riding is to teach other idiots how to do it. But that's kind of a joke, but kind of not. Mostly, I teach so that they learn properly and safely.
>> To not be thinking about it.
>> Yeah, because there's a lot of, lot of guys that just want to ride bulls, and they just go get on bulls.
>> Yeah.
>> And you can't just go get on bulls. You need training, you need to know what you're getting into and be prepared for it. Otherwise, it's dangerous, even when you are prepared, much less if you're not. But actually it was kind of a range management thing. We had a terrible drought in 2017. I was not doing any management with my rangelands and my grass, any, I was just ranching, trying to, trying to scrape by. I wasn't really, I didn't have any management plans. So, we get a bad drought. And I was, of course, forced to sell cows, because I was not prepared for, I wasn't necessarily overstocked, but my rangelands weren't healthy. And that's one of the reasons why I really started getting into more education on how to manage my rangelands to be prepared for drought, to have a plan in place. So, I sold a bunch of cows in 2017. And then in 2018, we had a great year, so I'm understocked, because they're a little expensive. And a buddy of mine had some rodeo cows and needed a place to go with them, and I had grass, and I know bulls and the rodeo world, so I took him on. And here we are, raising bucking bulls now.
>> Huh.
>> Yeah. And it worked good, because I needed more, I needed more stomachs. I needed more room in an animals on the place to manage it properly and to pay the bills.
>> Yeah.
>> And so it was not a way to not have to buy back more beef cows after my terrible, or my lack of management forced me to reduce my herd size. And then, of course, you're in trouble if you don't have the calves to make the payments. So, it worked out pretty good for me. And we're getting it figured out.
>> So, what does that look like? I don't know the world of what some people call recreational cattle very well. So, do you provide bulls, are you a rodeo contractor? Or you provide bulls to contractors? Or you provide seed stock to people that grow bulls for contractors? What does that look like?
>> Ah, it's a little bit of everything. Right now, I'm mostly just raising them, training them, and then selling them for stock contractors to have for their rodeos. I just don't have time with music and the ranch, I don't have time to be a stock contractor. It's a tough business to get into also. There's a lot of great contractors out there already, so to get into it isn't easy. But mostly it's a time thing. I just don't want to have to dedicate that time to travel all over the place.
>> Yeah.
>> Someday, maybe. But we'll see how the music thing goes.
>> So, how old is a bull that you would sell for a bucking stock?
>> You can sell them at any age. I typically get them to three so that they're ready to be rideables. You can sell yearling bulls. Guys will buy them to either grow them up or rider bulls or there's charity events you can enter yearling and 2 year old bulls in events. Without riders, it's just remote control dummies. And you can, there's big money in that. You can pay entry fees. And then they just judge the bull on how well he bucks. Just the bull.
>> Yeah.
>> And so there is value in selling these yearling and 2 year old bulls to guys that are doing that game.
>> Huh.
>> And I do that game some too. I take young bulls to competition.
>> Yeah.
>> It's a good way to train them, get them ready to be rideables.
>> I didn't know about that. It's always fun to learn about something that you had no idea about before. But this was a revelation to me, these, you know, bucking bull contests with dummies. And then you said you trained the bulls, like they've got to get trained before they go out. You don't just throw a cinch on them and they go.
>> No, no.
>> How do you get them ready?
>> Well, it's kind of like, it's kind of like a cow dog. A cow dog just naturally wants to chase a cow.
>> Have chase teams, yep.
>> So, these bucking bulls are bred to buck.
>> Yeah.
>> So, most of them are going to buck.
>> The hardwiring is there.
>> The hardwire is there. They're going to buck. They're probably going to spin. We can train some spin. But they've got the genetic bucking ability. So, now we've got to train them that, hey, you're okay in this shoot. Like all their instincts kind of are counterproductive just sitting in a shoot by themselves. They feel very vulnerable there. So, it takes a long time just to get them settled down, running them in, just letting them out, letting them know that this is safe, we're not going to hurt you, and then because when a rider starts getting on these bulls, it's a, the chute is the most dangerous place for a rider. Allegedly. It's definitely a dangerous place. So, it takes a lot of just training for that. And then with the dummy, we let them out bucking. And then when they do their job, we click the dummy off in two or three seconds, and then they slowly learn that, okay, this is my job. I come out, I buck for a few second, I jump and kick and I spin. The dummy or the rider is off. I leave out of this gate, and I go back and get some treats.
>> Yeah. Okay, you did that in about eight seconds. So, slow it down. Start again at the beginning. You put the, you put the dummy on the bull in the chute.
>> Yep, the dummy is essentially a rider simulator. So, it's just like it sounds. The bull comes in the chute, you put the dummy on them, it's just strapped around them with a cinch, just like a saddle. And then it has latches that are controlled remotely. Just like a remote control car. You just push a button and it releases latches whenever you want. So, after they're bucking, whenever you want that bull to be rewarded by getting rid of this thing that's attached to him.
>> Yeah, so you're saying when the bull makes a move that's desirable in terms of bucking behavior, that's when you eject the dummy so that they associate that behavior with the cue that they've been, it's a release.
>> They win. That's their job. And then they learn that that's their job.
>> That's fascinating.
>> Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty cool. And we can take these younger bulls and have them ready for competition a lot faster and a lot safer, because it used to be when I was young, I was the dummy.
>> Riot.
>> Like the riders, the contractors, we would go to their place, and they would bring them to a practice. And now we would have to get on them for the first time.
>> Yeah.
>> Now we're using these dummies. So it saves, saves on the riders a lot too. And we've got a lot more good bulls because of them. And being so much money in the industry now, there's a 2 year old bull that she was going to win a million dollars in one year because, you know, in competition. And there's a lot of money in it. So, it's a pretty cool deal.
>> You're saying competition separate from
>> Separate from rodeos. Just a special competition just for bulls. American Bucking Bull, Incorporated is the name of the situation.
>> Yeah.
>> Just like the Angus herd, that's the breed of the bull now. That's also the parent company that you can register. All these bulls are registered. There's a registry. There's genetics. It's no different than the thoroughbreds or Angus cattle.
>> Yeah, I didn't realize either until we had a conversation looking at the animals in the pasture before we recorded this interview, that the breed is called American Bucking Bull.
>> Yep, they started, started the breed a few years back, somewhere in there, I'm not exactly sure when.
>> So, there's still other breed that get bucked, like straight up.
>> Yeah, I mean, you can buck anything. There's no, there's no set rules on what gets bucked or what doesn't. They say American buck bull, you know, there's no exact breed.
>> It's a mutt.
>> It's just a mutt of whatever, whatever crazy cow that somebody had that they couldn't get in, and some crazy bull that was wild, and they breed them together, and bull bucks, and now he'll get bred to another crazy cow, or five of them, and so they're just, just mixed. The only, I guess there's only one EPD in the bucking bulls, and that's bucking ability.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. Like that's really all we care about. Obviously, when you're raising them
>> They've got to be fertile.
>> Yeah, they've got to be fertile. They still have to milk a little bit.
>> Right.
>> Some of them don't milk great. And we're weaning some pretty small calves off of them sometimes. But we're still selecting for some of those maternal traits also. And, of course, if a bull is infertile, he's not going to have offspring, so
>> Right [inaudible]. Correct. But at the end of the day, really the only one that matters is that bucking ability EPD.
>> Yep. Yeah. Wow. How do they behave, like as a herd animal in the pasture?
>> In the pasture, like you've seen them out there, they're pretty good in the pasture, you know? You've got the one that comes up and looks for scratches and treats. And there's, there's 2 or 3 out of the 40 cows that I've got out there, there's 2 or 3 that will either come up to you or be pretty close. And then there's about 20 that will kind of come around if you've got a bucket of grain, and maybe get close to you. You've got to be careful. And then there's about 10 that will just watch you from the back. Puts their heads in the air. You don't want to get close to them.
>> You've got to watch your back.
>> Yeah. And them are the ones that usually raise the best bulls, the athletes. And but in the pasture, as long as there's not baby calves, you don't have to worry about them too much in the pasture. But when you get them in to sort or to wean calves or to do anything in a confined area, they're all, you can't trust any of them. Like then they, then they go into, into flight mode, or, well, it's more of a fight mode in some of them. And they've got horns. So, it's a dangerous place in there. You've got to be careful. And they're fast, they're agile, they've got weapons on their heads, and very athletic. So, they're a different animal. There's been no docility. As a matter of fact, it's opposite of the beef breeds where we've bred docility into them. Handling ability.
>> For better and for worse.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And we've lost some good things because of that too.
>> Right.
>> But in the rodeo cows, we're literally breeding that out of them. Like we need that aggressiveness. Otherwise, the bulls just don't perform. So, it's a lot different working them, you know, to give shots or anything like that. They, they take a long time to handle them like that. But that's just part of the deal.
>> Yeah, I'm thinking of breeds like Tarentaise that are notorious for having a rough disposition. And I feel like you see a lot of that color pattern in the American Bucking Bull breed.
>> Yeah, I'm sure if you did some tests, I'm sure you'd find some Tarentaise and Gelbvieh in a lot of these cows. Yeah. Crazy.
>> What else do you, so those were a more recent addition to the ranch. And, otherwise, you're raising commercial beef cattle?
>> Yep. Just mostly blacks. Kind of switching over to some reds a little bit, just for that heat situation on that black hide, you know? Hoping, hoping they get that price difference figured out pretty quick. But
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, just raising good Angus beef. Trying to. And, ultimately, with the rodeo cows, or the beef cows, it's just a way to harvest this grass I've got out here and manage the rangelands. So, but also you want to make money with it. And the beef cows always making money.
>> Yeah, it feels to me like maybe a good combination to have come into ranching with a business degree, and then learn some stuff about pasture management. Do you feel like that has served you well, you know? Because you've seen people that think they know something about pasture, but they can't run a business. And each in a good year when calves are selling like crazy, they still barely make money.
>> Yeah, undoubtedly it has helped. You know the old saying. When you go to college, you're not necessarily learning everything you need at college obviously. But you're learning how to learn.
>> Right.
>> And I think that served me best. Yeah, I learned some good business. But ultimately I've learned, I don't know how much more. I've learned, I've learned most of my ranching knowledge from seminars, from grazing management conferences or whatever from NDSU, Duke, North Dakota State, University Extension, or grazing associations that put on these seminars and educational opportunities. And more focused, well, our local research centers, I attended, I still do, but for a while, when I really wanted to start learning more, I would go to every, every opportunity that the local research center would do. Because they're researching how to manage our land.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's, that's what's important.
>> Yeah.
>> When you're working here. But, yeah, just being open minded and wanting to learn is the first thing. And wanting to get better.
>> How long ago did you begin like chasing that down, trying to learn what you could about how to ranch well or manage land well?
>> Well, I guess to be honest, it kind of started because I wanted to make more money. I just wanted, I wanted to, I went to my first, I think it was a covered crop seminar, because I wanted to run more cows on less land. And so it's pretty selfish and pretty ignorant reason I went to it. And I said that at the seminar. And he just looked at me like, oh, boy, this guy's got a lot to learn. And I did. And that's where it started. That's when I started learning that when you take care of your land and manage it right, you maybe can run more cows, but you're just going to have better health, all these things. But mostly when I bought this place, it's a pretty, pretty big place, so I had a lot more pastures. And I didn't know, I had always just done what my dad did, or, you know, I just kind of followed. But now I had a place I had to manage myself. And I had no clue. So, I had to reach out for help. Like which pastures do I start? So, then I went to a three day grazing seminar put on by NDSU Research Center. And that was, that was the beginning of my learning. And then I started immediately, within three years, started seeing herd health improvements, rangeland improvements, weed suppression, just a lot of, a lot of good things. And then when the bad news came out about that cows are bad for the environment, then I started getting into it more about what we're doing for CO2 sequestration or carbon cycle management and stuff like that. So, it's just kind of, and I keep seeing more results, more positive results; both with my cattle and my range. And, as you can see, I've still got a long ways to go. And there's a lot more I can do. And I'm excited for it.
>> Yeah. Now the range looks pretty nice. You said something interesting. You said that the range management improvements showed up in animal health. And I think a lot of people feel like taking some steps to manage pasture better is good for the plants, but not always good for the animals. What were the animal head benefits that you saw?
>> Higher weaning weights. Just less, less instances of sick cattle.
>> Less morbidity.
>> Less morbidity. Almost, well, I guess one of the things that I did was dedicate a calving pasture just for for, just for calving season. I won't touch it the rest of the year. So, I haven't had, other than a few random wet snowstorms or something, or I've to doctor a couple scours cases, I haven't had any scours in my calves. I moved my calving back a little bit too. But I used to have scours every year. And weak calves. And overeating. You'd think when you have more grass available, you'd have more overeating cases, more enterotoxemia. I've had none. I give a seven way shot too, usually at birth, which probably takes a zap. And each without that, I've just seen, I guess everything. Everything has improved in the herd. Weaning weights have improved with less supplementing also. Just having that fresh grass throughout the year instead of only in the spring, you know, on a season long grazing map that has just done amazing things for reproduction. Breedback has been, I've had a few years where I've been 100% on that, without any more supplementing or nothing. Just, so I guess it's not for sure the grazing management, but it could be awfully coincidental if it wasn't.
>> Yeah.
>> So
>> Yeah, what would you say are the general principles that are guiding how you choose to put cows where, when?
>> So, I studied the twice over grazing system. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
>> A little bit.
>> It's based around our native grasses' reproductive cycle.
>> Yeah.
>> So, we're stimulating
>> End growing season. You've got precipitation during the growing season.
>> Yep, times growing, times of precipitation, days of sunlight, all that. Mostly it's around the reproductive cycle, which is also around the growing season too I guess naturally. So, I guess the quick summary of that is you stimulate the grasses prior to July 15th. You graze half or whatever. And then let it rest through that reproductive cycle. I think.
>> While they're producing seed.
>> And tillers.
>> And [inaudible].
>> Yeah, whatever else native plants do.
>> Shoots.
>> Shoots, yeah. So they're not just producing seed, they're producing, grow roots more so you can give them that leaf area. So, that's mostly what I'm based around is that twice over, to stimulate that, I'm looking to doing some more highly, or higher intensity grazing as well. But also I have designated pastures just for the month of May, for early season that our old hayfields or cool season grasses. But I just graze them and allow the native grass pastures to grow more out and start grazing the native grasses until June 1. And then, and then I go into that. Most of them are on a three pasture rotation throughout the year, twice over, three pastures, grazing them twice. And that seems to be working good, the science of it, the biology of it makes sense. That higher intensity thing I'm looking at, just for the foot traffic and what not, on some of them. But, so that's mostly what I'm using there. And then October 15th is kind of when the, they say October 15th is when our grasses don't have the nutrient capabilities to maintain a cow. So, I typically, you know, if grasses are good, they'll let them go a little bit longer. But after that, then we go on to either some cover crops residue grazing, or just right to feeding hay.
>> Is that getting to be more common here? Because I feel like it wasn't say 20 years ago.
>> The cover crop grazing?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, it's getting a little more common. It's so tough here. It's kind of, it's hit and miss, because oftentimes we don't get moisture after the middle of July or beginning of July, so it's hard to grow late season cover crop. But sometimes I do some single season cover crops, where I just wait, I just designate a field and then plant the cover crops in mid June. And then if they grow a lot, I'll hay them, and then we'll get some regrowth with that for winter grazing as well. And then they have a little bit more nutrient capacity for winter grazing. That seems to carry them over a little bit better. And supplement some hay if we have to. But it's tough in North Dakota, because October 15th, we could get a snowstorm, and it might not go away until April or March or May. You know? So, it's hard. I don't plan on it very much, it's just, you know, I plan to have enough hay to get me from about November 1 to April 20th or so.
>> Right.
>> Because you might have to.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's pretty tough to get caught with your pants down if we get a bad winter, because if it's 30 below 0, them cows need hay. Otherwise, you're going to sacrifice calf health. And that might be another thing that has improved my calf health and herd health is a good winter feeding program too and good cover and good protection. But that's essentially, essentially what we're doing for most of the year is just getting ready for winter, or feeding in the wintertime. But it works.
>> Well, that sounds like you've been pretty busy for the last 25 years, between bull riding and ranching. Where in the middle of that did you start doing music?
>> Well, I started doing music in high school, because I was pretty dorky, and I didn't know if I would have a chance to find a woman that might like me, so I figured I better learn how to play guitar.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I dabbled in it from then. And worked pretty well, in case you're wondering, but, that and the bull riding. So, I kind of dabbled in college, started a little band just for fun. But, like I said, was always focused on that bull riding. So, kind of, kind of messed around with music a little bit. But when I retired, retired from bull riding, and then took a few years just to get my life back, just figure out life and get the ranching thing going after the bull riding life. And then I just needed, I needed something, I needed something more. That bull riding is such a, it's such a major part of your life. Every weekend, you're going places and doing things that most people do once a year. Like we're living a life of celebration constantly. And it's addictive. It's hard. It's hard to go from that to just
>> The mundane.
>> Yeah, just living a normal life. So, I really needed something to kind of take the place of that bull riding and something to work for, something to train for, something I could put my energy into, and so I started doing a little bit more. I did some dance bands and that whole thing. And then I got sick of that real, pretty fast. And just craved, craved doing music with a purpose, I guess, instead of doing it in bars and encouraging people to drink or something like that, I wanted to use it for positive, something positive, to encourage people to do, to live a better life, or feel better about themselves, but also, you know, maybe a way to tell our story, what we're doing. Especially as, when all the bad news and people started chastising the ag, agricultural world for ruining the environment and not taking care of the food sources and that, I really wanted to try to do something there.
>> Yeah, there's a great quote that I've used, I feel like I've used it lots of times on the podcast, just talking to how, speaking to how humans think and are motivated. But there was a musician in Ancient Greece who said one time, let me write the songs of a nation. And I don't care who writes its laws. And his point was, you know, we live toward what we love. And what we listen to in terms of music and literature shapes that. It's affected by what we listen to. And so if you're listening to, you know, yeah, cop killing, raping.
>> Getting drunk.
>> All the bad stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, like that's the stuff that's top of the charts right now.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah, so I appreciate wanting to sing about stuff that has a little bit more virtue than that. It seems like there's a pretty big leap from, you know, playing local dances to trying to be a recording artist. How in the world do you start to make that transition and get serious about it?
>> Well, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done is the original music, when we started writing and recording original music, it's a major challenge. It's very difficult to take a song that nobody's ever heard and make them hear it.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, most people just want to hear George Strait and the songs they know or these other terrible songs you hear on the radio. So, that's just hard. I mean, number one, it's hard to write a good song.
>> Yeah.
>> Number two, it's hard to get people to gravitate and listen to that good song. And then on top of that, back to what we were just talking about, it's hard to take a song with a positive message
>> And make it popular.
>> Because, for some reason, and we're trying to balance that right now, like we have to be so careful not to be preachy, or, I mean, nobody wants to listen to a song that tells them or makes them feel like they're a bad person.
>> Right.
>> So, we've got to be very careful to still have a good song with a good message, but, because, like you say, for some reason, people want to hear songs about bad things.
>> Yeah.
>> And all I can figure is that they want to escape. When you're listening to something, or when you're in your free time, you don't want to be preached to, you don't want to be made to feel like you're a bad person. So, that's, that's one of our challenges is to maintain the goal of keeping a positive message, but still be successful. Because if people don't hear our songs, what's the point of writing these good songs if nobody's going to listen to it? So, it's a challenge, but we're getting it figured out. I've got a, I've got a pretty good crew of people that are, that are working hard for it. And I think we're going to make it.
>> Good. Did you say that you gave a TEDx talk one time?
>> I did.
>> What was the topic of that?
>> It was grazing.
>> That's what I thought you said.
>> Well, it was, it was how cows can save the world.
>> Okay.
>> And that to this day, that's been the biggest opportunity that music has afforded me. Because originally they wanted me to come and do music at their TED Talk. And I said, I will do it if you let me give a talk as well. And if you've ever seen or been to a TED, TED Talk, there's not a lot of cowboy hats in those crowds.
>> No.
>> Like it's exactly the crowd that we want to reach our message to.
>> Yeah.
>> Because, I mean, yeah, people, people that mostly listen to our music, and people that mostly we talk to at these meetings and just in passing, they know it's like preaching to the choir. So, that was one of the first things that really gets our message out to the people that need to hear it. And we got a good response from it. So, that really got me excited that, hey, maybe we can, maybe we can get out into the city world, or the world that hears all the bad stuff about animal agriculture.
>> When was that talk?
>> It was just a few weeks ago here in Fargo, North Dakota.
>> Oh, really?
>> Yeah.
>> Wow.
>> Pretty recent.
>> Congratulations.
>> Thanks, yeah. It was a pretty big deal. And, yeah, it was centered around the biology of how cows are part of the carbon cycle, cows are nature.
>> Yeah.
>> And when you're managing your rangeland properly, you're just stimulating that carbon cycle. We're turning atmospheric nitrogen, which is the devil, and we're turning that into some good stuff that you're going to want to use, like oxygen and a high quality protein source, to feed the world. And, man, people say things like, we're not going to be afraid to eat beef anymore, thanks to you. Like we're so happy to hear that. And it makes sense. You know? It's eighth grade biology, photosynthesis, and the carbon cycle. It's not a tough concept, but for some reason people in the world have been fed the idea that cows are bad for the involvement, because they emit methane. And, you know, there's trucking, just like all food production and everything. But when we do it right, it can be a positive thing.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think also, and I'd like your input on this too, but there is bad producers out there. There's bad actors in our industry that give us a bad name, that don't take care of the rangeland.
>> And that causes real problems.
>> It does. And that's, and them stories, you know, the animal abusers, that the 1 out of 1,000,000 or 1 out of 100,000 guys that are abusive, well, that's what the animal rights activists are going to grab a hold of and chastise the whole community for. So, I guess one of the things that I like to do with the message is tell ranchers, hey, you are stewards, we are stewards of this world, and we have a big responsibility in feeding the world, to do it right, and to provide a good source of food, and to take care of our natural resources. And if the consumer doesn't know that, they're going to be skeptical, and they're going to make it tough for us to do business and for us to make money. So, we are obligated to do a good job.
>> Yeah.
>> In my mind.
>> Yeah, I would agree. That's interesting, I was gently chastised recently by a listener for always painting grazing in a positive light.
>> Sure.
>> And I think part of that is that, you know, I sort of have the luxury of mostly working with what I would call, you know, innovative ranchers like you that are doing a good job. And even if they're not currently doing a great job, that's what they're aiming for. And they're always learning, and always trying to figure out, well, can I do this a little bit different that's going to make this better next year, or for the next generation? But there are real problems, ecological problems, with grazing done badly. And, you know, part of my job is to, and yours, you know, is to help those people see a different way.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And I think that's happening, by and large, across the country.
>> It's just slow, I think. And our community is slow to change to begin with. So, I guess you can't expect a whole lot more other than slow change. But if we don't tell the story and if we don't talk about it and if we don't live it and try to keep doing better ourselves and show the results, then it never happens. So, I guess
>> That makes me think of another song line. I don't remember who sang it, but The Next Thirty Years. Is that Tim McGraw?
>> Yeah, that's Tim McGraw.
>> Yeah, in My Next Thirty Years. Yeah, what are you hoping for in the next 30 years?
>> Yeah, well, all the things we've been talking about.
>> Yeah.
>> And to just
>> Train some safe bull riders? Raise good cattle? Take care of the land?
>> Yep, yep, keep improving, keep improving my operation, and, I mean, the whole ranching world. That can only, that can only benefit the world when we're, when we're doing that.
>> Mhmm. And make some good music that makes people look, look up to ranching and well done food production.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yep, just like Chris LeDoux did with rodeo. Why can't we do that with our music too? And, you know, a lot of our music is about rodeoing and riding bulls too.
>> Yeah.
>> But, yeah, there's definitely some of it that, and when we do concerts, I tell the story about how we are, not in all crowds, but if there's a crowd where it's people that might need to hear that story, I'm going to take that opportunity and tell them what we're doing out here with cows and grazing and feeding them.
>> Yeah.
>> It's good opportunities.
>> Well, thanks for taking the time to visit with me. Thanks for having me here. And I think I can give a half expert opinion that your ranch looks good.
>> Well, thank you. I haven't got to it yet, but I want your input in what I can do better, so we'll get to that off air maybe. Unless you want to tell the folks what I can do better. And then it's [inaudible]. Because there's always something we can do better, that's for sure.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I appreciate it.
>> Yeah, Beni, thanks for joining me. This was wonderful.
>> Yes, I agree. And you're welcome anytime.
>> Thank you for listening to the Art of Range podcast. Links to websites or documents mentioned in each episode are available at artofrange.com. And be sure to subscribe to the show through Apple Podcats, Podbean, Spotify, Stitcher, or your favorite podcasting app, so that each new episode will automatically show up in your podcast feed. Just search for Art of Range. If you are not a social media addict, don't start now. If you are, please like or otherwise follow the Art of Range on Facebook, LinkedIn, and X, formerly Twitter. We value listener feedback. If you have questions or comments for us to address in a future episode, or just want to let me know you're listening, send an e mail to show@artofrange.com. For more direct communication from me, sign up for regular e mail from the podcast on the homepage at artofrange.com. This podcast is produced by Connors Communications in the College of Agricultural, Human, and Natural Resource Sciences at Washington State University. The project is supported by the University of Arizona and funded by sponsors. If you are interested in being a sponsor, send an e mail to show@artofrange.com
>> The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by guests of this podcast are their own and does not imply Washington State University's endorsement.
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