AoR 85: Pastoralists Displaced in Cameroon, Africa -- Mark Moritz & Paul Scholte

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>> Welcome to the Art of Range, a podcast focused on rangelands and the people who manage them. I'm your host, Tip Hudson, Range and Livestock Specialist with Washington State University Extension. The goal of this podcast is education and conservation through conversation. Find us online at artofrange.com.

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Welcome back to the Art of Range. I have been wrestling a little bit with how best to introduce my guest and our topic today. I -- I heard about some of this work through a news item I saw maybe a month ago, two months ago about pastoralist peoples being displaced in Cameroon as a result of warfare and the activities of Boko Haram there. So I think I'm just going to read a few sentences from this article and then we'll do some personal introductions with -- with my guest today. The title of this short news brief was "Thousands of Pastoralists Seek Refuge in Waza National Park, Cameroon." I have no idea if I pronounced that correctly. "In December of 2021, a decades-long conflict between Musgum fishers and Shuwa Arab pastoralists escalated at the Logone floodplain in Cameroon, resulting in 112 villages burned, 66 deaths, and 100,000 displaced people. What has not been reported is that 2,500 pastoralists, with an estimated 35,000 cattle, sought refuge in Waza National Park, on the west of the floodplain. The incursion of cattle into conservation areas has become common in Central Africa. But this is the first time the inhospitable Waza National Park has served as a refuge for pastoralists and their families. To assess the situation, one of us visited the Park during -- " December 29 through 31 of 2021. This article goes on to describe the major wildlife species in the park and the fact that this had been the most visited park in Central Africa until about 2013 when listeners may remember Boko Haram kidnapped a family from France in this area and that pretty much shut down the tourist traffic. So my guests today are Paul Scholte and Mark Moritz -- and, Paul, I don't know if I pronounced your name right -- the authors of this report in Conservation News. And recently having had my own eyes opened and my interest peaked on pastoralist cultures in other parts of the world, this article caught my attention and I thought it would be appropriate to talk more about this for those who are not familiar with what's going on in that part of the world. Mark and Paul, welcome.

>> Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure to be -- to be with you.

>> Yeah. Welcome, too. I enjoy -- I am looking forward to this conversation as well.

>> Well, you two might be the first interviewees I've had that I didn't have any prior knowledge of and -- and we really have not known each other at all. So it's easy for me to ask you to provide some background on yourselves, because I don't know you and our listeners, I think, mostly won't know you. Where do you live and work, and how did you come to be doing -- doing work with these cattle herders in Cameroon?

>> I can start. I'm Mark Woritz. I'm a Professor in Anthropology at the -- the Ohio State University. I'm originally from the Netherlands and it's -- that's where I started as a student. After that, I went to UCLA to get my PhD. And my work in Cameroon started as an undergraduate student at Leiden University and I was working for a PhD student in Cameroon, Francis Darla [assumed spelling] and I was doing part of a smaller -- a small part of a larger -- his larger PhD project. And that got me involved in working with pastoralists in the far north region of Cameroon. And then ever since I've been back for both my MA research, my PhD research, and research in my post-doctoral phase.

>> Yeah. My name is Paul Scholte. I'm presently working and living in Ethiopia in [inaudible]. I've been -- actually ever since I graduated from Wageningen University in the Netherlands in late 1980s, I've been working in [inaudible], quite a lot in Central Africa, fourteen years in -- in Cameroon in various -- various -- during various periods, and in other countries -- Yeomen -- and working often on protected area management, rangeland ecology, and obviously also on pastoralism. So Cameroon, that's where I started in the early 1990s. Actually, the first time I went to Cameroon was being almost sent out of Chad where the security situation did not allow us to -- to get out of [inaudible] anymore, so we took refuge in North Cameroon. And Waza, at that time, was heaven of peace and -- and actually the whole of Cameroon was at that time very, very peaceful and easy to visit and to travel to. I'm working presently for the German Development Corporation. I'm also visiting Professor at -- at the [inaudible] School -- Postgraduate School in Kinshasa, Congo, and still connected also with the Garoua Wildlife College, which is the college for training park wardens and based -- that's in North Cameroon.

>> Yeah. Thank you. For -- for those who can't pull up a map in their head and can't pull one up on their computer, can you describe where Cameroon is and -- and what is, kind of, the geography or the -- the landscape setting there?

>> I can start. Sometimes described as the armpit of Africa, not that it is a stinky place, but it's where West and Central Africa meet. And it's very long -- from the coast -- the Atlantic coast -- all the way up to Lake Chad in the north. And as you go from south to north, you go through different ecological zones, from the tropical rainforest to the highlands to the savanna. And -- and I've worked mostly in the savanna area in the north. It's also a country that's highly diverse. I'd say there's more than 250 languages that are spoken, and even in the small corner of Cameroon where I work, most of my -- most of my career in the far north, I think there's something like 35 languages.

>> And -- and Chad extends from the border of Cameroon clear up into the -- into the Sahara, doesn't it?

>> Yeah, that's correct. And it's very much the -- the heart or the center of -- of the continent. And obviously the northern part of Chad that borders or that's the Sahara Desert and that borders countries like Libya and then, obviously, another two, three thousand kilometers, you're in the Mediterranean area. But it -- but it's quite -- it's still -- from -- from, let's say, the center of Chad, it's still some four thousand kilometers before -- before you're there.

>> And then Sudan lies to the east of Chad. Is that right?

>> Yes. And then you've -- there, you've got Sudan. And west of Cameroon is obviously Nigeria. The most populist country and the -- on the continent with a bit more than 200 million people, and north of -- of Nigeria is Niger. And, again, north of Niger is Algeria, then the Mediterranean Sea.

>> And Cameroon sits right south where those all come together. I feel like whenever I hear news from Africa, it's mostly bad news. And it's hard to imagine where we live in relative peace and security having livestock operations displaced by war or this kind of social unrest. And I'd like to have you describe what that looks like for the people that are living there. But I -- I think I'd also like to have you describe pastoralism. What does the lifestyle look like of -- of this people group? The way that -- that I think of pastoralism, and correct me if I'm wrong, is -- is that we tend to think of livestock grazing here in the United States as a -- a way of making a living. But I think of pastoralism as -- as more a way of life, where people are mostly living and traveling with their animals, sort of like the case would be for somebody who was a shepherd or full-time sheep herder here. Is that an accurate characterization?

>> I would say no. And not just to -- to be contrary. It's a no and yes. Yes, as though it is a way of making a living and it is a way of life. And the way anthropologists describe pastoralism is that the -- the -- the -- the work of keeping herd animals is -- is a 24/7 job and it shapes the everyday life but it also shapes societies. And so we talk -- we write and we talk about not just pastoral systems, but pastoral societies because the -- the -- the -- the work of raising livestock shapes all aspects of societies. But it's not correct in the sense that I would argue that a lot of the -- -- grazing systems in the U.S. also are not just a way of making a living, but also a way of life. And so there's family farms have been in the family for hundreds of years. When developers move in and turn rangelands into new developments or sub-developments, that's a clash of cultures. And so, in many ways, I think I would argue that there's lots of overlap between ranchers in the United States and other parts of the world, and pastoralists in Africa and as well as other parts of the world.

>> Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that and I suspect many ranchers will appreciate that. I -- I sense, having myself been, I guess, displaced from my home of origin in Arkansas about twenty-five, nearly thirty years ago, there's a -- there's still a connection to that -- to that physical space that -- that persists, you know, in my head. And I think that connection to place is something that people that have never been attached to it don't understand, but certainly ranchers and farmers who have been in the same place for many generations in the U.S. share that -- that attachment to place, even though their work doesn't look like pastoralism. And I -- I think that -- -- that is a good reminder that there's different ways of owning land, using land, and in handling this land use. But let's go -- we'll -- we'll get around to that. Let's talk about the situation in Cameroon. Can you describe the culture of the pastoralist there? Is there a -- a name for the -- for this people group? Or is that not the case? And what does their life look like?

>> So I -- there's many pastoralists. So they're the most -- the most numerous in terms of groups, and households are Fulani, also called Fulbe -- or Peul, in French -- and the other numerous group is the Arab Shuwa and they are bilingual. They -- they both, in most cases, speak both Fulani as well as Arabic. And then there's other pastoralist groups as well. So there's -- and then that's true for the whole of -- of Africa. There's many different pastoral groups. And then just to -- there's lots of variation among these pastoral groups and just -- just to focus on the far north region which -- Logone floodplain is located, you have pastoralists that also farm and so they keep a small herd of animals and they grow sorghum and millet. And then there's pastoralists who are mobile and so they move with their whole family and their herds seasonally from one place to another. So there's lots of variation in terms of dependence on -- in terms of culture, in terms of the dependence on agriculture, the dependence on livestock, and also in the -- the -- the -- how mobile they are. And I could go on and talk about the everyday life, or how they do their herding.

>> Yeah, please.

>> I'm now going to create a stereotype, and keep in mind there's lots of variation. But take some of the -- the mobile pastoralists that I'm most familiar with. So it's a -- it's a -- the -- the livestock is owned by a family. The family works together. That is relatively -- there's a strong sexual division of labor, and so women are in charge of the households and men are in charge of the herds. And, of course, I'm exaggerating. If there's no boys to take care of the herd, the girls will step in. Animals are taken to pasture from the early morning, say six o'clock, and then the -- they are taken to pasture by a herder. And it's an interplay between the herders and the herd making decisions about where to go and when to go. The -- the animals are watered in rivers or small lakes or ponds, and then at the end of the day they come back at around six o'clock. Both before the herd leaves and when the herd comes back, the -- the cows with calves are milked. Some of the milk is for the household and it is maybe sold at the market by women. Some of the milk, of course, is for the calves. So this goes on 365 days a week. But the -- the movements -- and so they have -- when the rainy season ends, pastoralists in this part of the world move to the Logone floodplain, and so they pack up all their things. They move -- they load everything on animals and then they move to a new site. And often it's a site that they've been many years before. So they have a -- they have a plan. Of course, it depends on what -- this year's situation is. And -- the milk provides -- some of the milk is also sold in the markets by women and it provides some of the food. But to provide -- to provide more income, some animals are sold. But the goal is not necessarily to make a profit, but the goal is to feed the family and sustain the herd and the household for generations.

>> That's interesting. Do -- so many family are moving together? And are they traveling together, more or less when they -- when they move?

>> Yeah. There's -- there's lots of variation. And, of course, I'm going to say that many times -- so my apologize.

>> Sure.

>> My apologies. So some groups -- so the households are not independent, and so they -- they often live with others. And so in -- in -- in our articles, we've called these camps, and so a household consists of multiple camps, and there may be camps with Fulani or Arab or combined. These camps vary in size, and so the camps of the Arabs are relatively large, like twenty-five, thirty households. And some of the camps of Fulani are very small, like ranging from two -- two to ten. And one of the reasons is that the smaller the camp, the -- the fewer -- the less pasture the animals have to share with other -- with cows, of cattle with -- with other camps. When they move they generally move in groups. Often people leave around the same time. But coming back to the issue of security, when there was banditry and kidnappings -- and generally in terms of insecurity, people move in larger groups because there's safety in numbers.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And that's also why the Arabs say -- Arabs love people and the Fulani love cows. And, of course, that's a joke. But the Arabs live in large camps because the -- the size of the camps provides protection for the humans. Fulani live in smaller camps, and it's riskier for humans but it gives the -- the cattle better -- access to better pastures.

>> Forgive my ignorance. Are they selling any of the animals for meat, or are they mostly selling milk? Or is it just subsistence living?

>> They -- they drink milk. They sell milk, they sell yogurt, they sell animals. And the animals are either resold and transported to Nigeria or they're butchered at the local markets and then the meat is sold. They rarely -- so they rarely eat meat themselves. With weddings and other ceremonies, there may be one animal is slaughtered and meat may be -- meat is consumed. But generally it's millet and milk with maybe some dried fish. So it's -- it's -- it -- they're participating in the market economy, but their goal is not to maximize the money and earn as much money as possible, but to grow the herd and make sure there is enough animals for the next generation.

>> Yeah. In the places where they're moving through and in, is that land considered government land, or is it -- how is land ownership handled in that part of Cameroon?

>> I just -- Paul, do you want to step in?

>> Yeah. I kind of can say something on it. I mean, it's the -- Cameroon and also a country like Chad is -- is a -- is a former -- former French colony, so formerly in the -- the -- all -- all land is governmental lands. I mean, that -- that's the formal situation since colonization and the -- and the -- and the -- the -- the independent government has taken over that system. But, obviously, there are more -- more, call it "traditional", systems where even if the government is the -- the exclusive owner of land, the organization and the -- the -- the -- is -- is -- is often organized at the far more local level. But private land in the sense that we know it in the west does not occur a lot, and actually it's only the -- all of the villages, the settlements where pure private land can be found. Actually, even most agricultural land, crop land, is hardly ever private land in the pure sense that it has been registered and that people have -- have, call it "easy," easy ownership on it. So the -- the system of ownership and -- and -- and -- and land is obviously that is -- that is very much also still under -- under development and spreading, I would say, out of the -- the -- the big cities, the major cities -- cities, the major settlements. And, obviously, that is -- that is changing quite -- quite rapidly in some of the wetter areas. But in the drier parts, call it communal land or land that is not private is -- is still dominant.

>> Maybe this is too big a question, but how would you characterize that across the rest of Africa? For example, I think of some of the countries in South Africa, or the southern part of the continent of Africa, where there does seem to be exclusive land ownership, where somebody has a farm and that's their spot, and they have exclusive access to that. But then, in places like this, there's more of a -- a common -- land held in common. Does -- do those differences track with the way the African culture was prior to European colonization, or was it -- does it track with the countries that colonized it? Or is it more random and site-specific than that?

>> I -- I would say the big explanation is that it -- the -- the countries in Southern Africa and Eastern country -- in Eastern Africa were settler colonies, and so you have the established White farms and White rangers. And -- and that's -- and so they occupy a lot of the land and evict -- evicted a lot of the local -- local pastoralists and local farmers. In -- in West Africa, most -- I don't think any of the colonies in -- in West Africa, maybe Liberia, were settler colonies, so there was no established -- there was no major program of establishing colonialist settling, and that is the difference. And so the traditional systems are more intact.

>> Yeah. And it's important to -- to -- to -- to say directly -- it's -- it's an issue that is enormous, under discussion, and -- and -- and work and creates more and more conflicts, especially, obviously because of increasing pressure. So land is increasingly becoming scarce -- a scarce commodity and -- and -- and that -- that relays directly into -- into some people taking more and others less of the ownership of it.

>> What is the -- the social situation that resulted in Boko Haram becoming active in -- in Cameroon or on the border with Chad?

>> Yeah. I -- I can say something on it. But obviously it's also a subject that is -- that's -- that's enormous and very quickly one -- one risks simplifying it too much. But -- but let's say the -- the general story is obviously Boko Haram started and has its origin in Nigeria, being the -- directly bordering to the west of the area with North Cameroon. and, actually, the -- what you described in the -- in the introduction with the kidnapping of the French tourists in 2013, that was the -- call it the "trigger" and, ever since, Boko Haram has been present in -- in -- in far North Cameroon. But obviously they're building on -- on -- on -- on social -- social unrest, on -- on -- on all sorts of dynamics that existed already, long -- long -- a long time in the area. So it's -- it's -- it's much more reinforcing elements then, and that is completely new. Obviously, the sheer violence and the -- and the difficulty on -- on how to capture is obviously something relatively new. It has gone through all layers and obviously more and more people are -- are set up against each other. And that goes opposite -- that goes partly through more -- call it more and more tribal groups, but -- but also much more along family lines, etc. And so the -- the situation for -- for -- for everybody in North Cameroon has -- has -- has been -- become extremely complicated. And -- and that's still the situation today, even if over the last two, three years the situation has been slightly improving, to use that word, and some of the violence and some of the elements that we hear about now is less Boko Haram, but much more something that was already present some -- some ten years ago.

>> So there -- are -- are they targeting individual people groups, or are they just trying to spread general terror to accomplish their purpose? Is it targeted, or is it just "we're here."

>> I -- I would -- I would say -- I would be a bit more -- more -- more pragmatic, or describe it as a -- as a -- as a more pragmatic movement. Obviously, there are religious and more ideological -- ideological reasons behind it -- behind Boko Haram. But I would say much of the -- of the violence, much of what's happening is far more as a way of survival, as a way of -- of earning, making an income, and obviously raiding the cattle and -- and other items are -- is -- has become one -- one business model for -- for -- for Boko Haram as well. So it's -- it's -- I don't think one should see it too much as a kind of religious movement, but far more that -- that was the background to -- at the start. But it has become something in the way of survival and the way of living, much more than anything else. And -- and one thing, obviously, the -- the -- the -- the -- the -- the unrest and the -- the fight between -- between officials and the -- and the pastoralists that we -- that we mentioned -- that you mentioned at the very beginning, that has little to do with Boko Haram in itself. It's far more an -- an -- an -- almost a centuries old -- -- conflict or a difference of interests and -- and, obviously, the sheer size and the sheer violence that was now -- I mean, we're talking about more than a hundred villages burned. We're talking about thousands and thousands of displaced people. Possibly some of that sheer size is because the society has become less adapted, less -- less -- leaders have become less present, less active, I would say, possibly diverted from -- from -- from -- from activities with Boko Haram in the past. So the -- the resilience -- use that word -- the resilience of society has reduced -- has become reduced. So possibly before Boko Haram -- possibly such a conflict would not get so much out of hand as it has become now. And that's obviously -- call it the collateral damage of -- of -- of Boko Haram that the entire systems have -- have eroded because of -- because of what happened over the last few years.

>> Yes. And you mentioned in this paper, in the -- a different paper, I don't guess I've referenced yet -- there's a 2019 article in the journal, Land Use Policy, where you're describing this situation and how this displacement and the conflict sort of jeopardizes the resiliency of what you call an open property regime. I'm sure you didn't coin that term, but I think that's a -- a useful term to define here. We've talked a bit about land held in common, but how would you describe this open property regime in a little more detail? And how does -- how does this displacement and this conflict jeopardize the stability of that?

>> I can address that. So you -- so you may be familiar with common property regimes. And so Eleanor Ostrom, who won the Nobel Prize for her work, showed that when natural resources are held in common and that may be fishery grounds or grazing lands or forest, they can be sustainably managed by -- by a community when they have rules about who can access those resources, how much they can extract, and what's the -- the -- the rules, and also rules for people who violate, that extract more, or violate the rules. So this model has been dominant in a lot of the work on the pastoral systems. What I -- that was also in my head when I studied pastoral systems in the far north region of Cameroon. I really -- what I found was that there was no such thing as a common property regime, and so pastoralists are not bounded by one particular place. If you look at when I recorded the histories of pastoralists who have been in Logone floodplain for a -- a -- for a while, it turns out they came from Nigeria before, or they came from Niger. Others that were in the Logone floodplain have since moved to Chad or to the Central African Republic or [inaudible], Cameroon, and so all the -- the evidence that I collected that suggested that there was an open system, that basically there was open access to pastoral -- to all the -- to the -- the -- the rangelands, and of course Hardin's theory of the tragedy of the commons suggests when there's open access to common pool resources, you will get a tragedy. And so there will be overgrazing. And that is not what is happening. So then I tried to make sense of it together with Paul and other colleagues, I mean, studied this system to see how it works and -- and -- and whether it's sustainable or -- or not. What we find is that open access is a right. It's a -- this -- you can compare it with a right to clean air and pastoralists describe it as you cannot prevent people from access to grass because, with grass -- without grass, the animals won't survive. And if animals -- if animals cannot survive, their existence -- it affects their whole existence. And so everybody has a right -- access to grazing land. It's a public good, not a -- not a common pool resource. [Inaudible] and then people asked, but is there no overgrazing? And then it turns out in the Logone floodplain there is not. And the reason is that people move elsewhere when -- when elsewhere is better. And so it's not that people are stuck in the place and then graze down the grass 'til they finish everything and then they move on. No, they're always assessing where -- where will my animal -- animals do better? So when they go, when they travel, when they go to markets, when they meet other people, after their greetings, the first thing they say is, so -- where are you? So how are your cows? How is the grass? And if they find that their animals are not doing as well as the animals with other pastoralists, they -- they realize it's time to move. And they move to places where the grass is better. And so this continues. Movement of cattle and grazing pressure over the landscape prevents a tragedy of the common. But it also means that they're -- that also increases the fitness of all animals. So that's a counterargument against that open access leads to a tragedy of the commons. So we have to teach open property regimes, and not just in the Chad Basin where we work in the far north region of Cameroon, but also in other parts of the world and other systems where you have open access and no tragedy of the common. And one of the key things is that there's -- mobility is -- is important. And so you are not stuck in one place. You can move to where the resources are and that allows-- it prevents the -- the overgrazing.

>> It sounds like what you're describing is this ideal free distribution which was a term that was new to me. I -- I have heard of an open property regime. But I had never seen the term before -- ideal free distribution. Can you describe some of -- any other elements to that, other than what you've just described?

>> Yeah. So that -- that is one of the ways we assessed whether the system works. And so you can say there's freedom to move, but maybe that will be total chaos and everyone goes to the same spot and you will get the same -- you get overgrazing. And so ideal free distribution is a concept from behavioral psychology and it predicts that the distribution of the consumers of the resources will match distribution of the -- of the resources, and it has been used to describe the distribution of fish populations, bird populations, as well as other populations. And so we used it -- used it to look at the distribution of cattle in the Logone floodplain and we used special remote sensing data to map the -- the resources and we used NDVI as an indicator of where there were more resources and where there were fewer grazing resources. And then we did a survey or census of the -- all the pastoralists in the Logone floodplain or in our study area and we estimated their number of cattle. And then we compared the distribution of cattle with the distribution of grazing resources, and we found that there was a -- a good match. So there's areas where there's more resources, you'll find more pastoralists. In areas where there are fewer resources, you'll find fewer pastoralists. And the interesting thing is that this idea of free distribution emerges from individual decision making. And so it's individual pastoralists making the decisions that I just described, like seeing how your animals are doing, seeing how other animals are doing, then making the decision to move. And all those individual decisions lead to the emergence of this ideal free distribution at the population level.

>> And that's jeopardized when those movements are no longer free, but they're being either forced or constrained by other social factors?

>> Yeah, exactly. And so that's what the paper that you're referencing, Land Use Policy, is about. So it -- it -- it looks at the impact of the Boko Haram on the pastoralists, and so the northeast of Nigeria -- that's where Boko Haram is -- has been very active -- there's lots of pastoralists and lots of grazing land. And for the longest time, pastoralists stayed in the area, even though it was insecure. But when they were actually targeted and their people were killed by Boko Haram and their animals were stolen, they fled the area. They basically -- they described it as they "ran out" of northeast Nigeria. That basically meant that the whole of northeast of Nigeria is now inaccessible. And so nobody can go there. There's grazing lands going to waste and -- and they're stuck, they're limited to where they can go. And that, of course, a sedentarization and settlement and fixing people in place -- that is -- that is the danger for pastoral systems. And so mobility is a key adaptation in these pastoral systems.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Yeah. And -- and -- and actually, also, the pastoralists are almost squeezed out of these -- of these areas going further to south, farther into the wooded savannas where, obviously, the situation, the health situation for the animals is far more problematic. But also that that's one of the few areas where national parks were -- were created and so the conflict between pastoralists and -- and the national parks, let's say, the last [inaudible] the last wild areas is increasing enormously over the last couple of years. So, actually, the pastoralists are the ones who were squeezed out of all the areas and then are -- are confronted and -- and -- and -- and have no other choice than go into -- than to go into those -- those protected areas. And so the tragedy is that that's, with all the civil unrest with the Boko Haram plus others, plus increasing agricultural lands, there's little room for another -- of -- for the pastoralists. And only confrontations with -- with -- with -- with cultivation and sometimes also agriculturalists, obviously, is remaining.

>> Mm-hmm. And you make the case that that -- that that is costly in several ways for the pastoralists. What are some of those costs?

>> Well, the first -- the first -- the first costs are obviously to go out of the areas where they have their -- where they normally stay and -- and moving, fleeing out of those areas. It's costly because it's not just moving a herder with the animals, but it's the entire family that accompanies them. And some of these protected areas, Waza National Park, in which they fled, there was still quite a lot of water left at the -- at the end of the flooding season, so pastoralists, they wade through several decimeters of water. So the risks for -- for health -- for human health, but also animal health. So they've lost quite -- quite some animals, especially sheep that are far less resistant, far more vulnerable for humidity. But especially they're moving out of areas where people are used to have their relatives, have their connections, have their knowledge -- that is always costly. I mean, moving is always costly and especially, obviously, if you move into areas where -- where -- where disease but plus -- plus -- plus risks -- other risks. Not that there are many predators but, for example, this case where two and a half thousand cattle went into Waza. I think some three, four cattle were predated upon by -- by lion, etc. So the changing is always costly, including for pastoralists.

>> And to piggyback off on that, we described mobility as the key adaptation, and moving is what makes the system work -- this pastoral system work. The people move -- do not move haphazardly. They're not wandering. So the moves are planned and before people move they get a -- collect a lot of information. They go on scouting trips and they often move to areas that they've moved before. And so both the humans as well as the animals know the areas and know the grasses and the resources. With -- when people have to flee, all of a sudden they go to areas that they have no knowledge of and animals are not habituated to those areas. And that means that animals are not thriving. They're not gaining as much weight. The move itself, indeed, costs a lot of energy and so this is highly distressful for both humans and animals.

>> Yeah. That's interesting. Ranchers here that I've worked with would say that if they're moving livestock into a new area that they may graze for a couple months and then go somewhere else, it takes nearly three years, say, for the mother cow, for the mature females, to become familiar enough with that area that they -- that they do well. That they know where to find water and where to find grass and where to find minerals. And there's a learning curve for both the animals and the people.

>> That is exactly what's going on in Cameroon as well. And so the animals are habituated to certain -- to certain -- to the -- to the seasonal round or the transhumance route that they make that allows them to thrive, and it also puts a certain stability in the system. And that's why, also, people generally prefer to go to the same areas. And so insecurity screws that all up, and all of a sudden a pastoralist cannot go to those places where they feel at home and where their animals thrive and are habituated.

>> And you mentioned in the paper that -- that these people can be considered invisible refugees. They're almost like refugees, but they're not leaving-leaving their home territory. How would you describe the difference between what the U.N. -- what the United Nations would normally consider an official refugee versus these invisible refugees? And I -- the term that I'm using is an "internally displaced person." And I know that's also an official term that I'm not certain I'm using accurately. But can you talk a bit about these invisible refugees and how that plays into how they get treated?

>> Yeah. I'm not sure if we use the term correctly in the paper, and so what I learned later -- I think maybe last week, even -- is that refugee is an official status that you get -- status from the U.N. that allows you to enter, for example, the U.S. -- the United States as a refugee. And so it's an official status. And so you can flee your country and not be a refugee because you have not been officially recognized. We use the term invisible refugee because -- mainly to -- to -- -- to make the point that these pastoralists that flee Boko Haram from Northeast Nigeria are not on the radar of the United Nations -- U.N.H.C.R. -- the -- the U.N. organization that helps refugees, because pastoralists do not go to the camps for the displaced people. They just stay in the bush because if they have herds they have to feed their animals. And so they're not counted. They're not -- they're not -- they don't have access to aid. And so their -- their flexibility and mobility that they -- is both an advantage and a disadvantage. And so it's an advantage in the sense that they can -- they're used to moving. Of course, not -- they're not used to fleeing. But they're invisible and they don't have the -- they don't get the support and they're not counted by the official organizations.

>> Right. Right. Yeah, I would -- I would say the term refugee, I guess that's lower case 'r' refugee, is a generic noun, and I'm not sure the United Nation gets to own that dictionary. You know, just the -- the term, I guess, means somebody who's seeking refuge from the place where they would normally be. And, in that sense, these people groups certainly fit that definition. They may not be fleeing very far, but they're certainly leaving places they would normally be. And, in that sense, you know, fit the generic definition of a refugee.

>> That's correct.

>> And -- and -- yeah, and our problems obviously is that we are -- our world is a world of sedentary people. They are dominant in terms of numbers, but also in terms of -- of positions. And so it's very difficult to look with a perspective of a -- of a pastoralist, of somebody who is moving, to these -- to these issues. So the -- it's not only the matter of the definitions, but all the -- all the organizations in terms of how to -- how to intervene, how to give a helping hand, how to etc., is so much biased by the sedentary perspective that -- call it the transhumant or nomadic perspective of -- of most pastoralists is completely ignored. And partly, logically, because they are a minority in terms of the overall numbers. But, unfortunately, it may mean, also, that they are left completely on their own. And -- and considerations of how one could do something to give a helping hand is completely -- is -- is not being thought of.

>> Yeah. It's interesting you mention that. One of my questions that just came to mind is what -- how do the other people in Cameroon see the pastoralists? Are they marginalized within their own country? What percentage of the population are they, and what do other people do? And is that -- is everybody else working with a common property regime, or is that just existing in the places where the pastoralists have grazing areas?

>> Yeah, I -- I think one has to be careful to think there's one -- one -- one -- one perspective or one way of viewing them. And, again, I think that very much depends on -- from where one is and let's say from the -- from the big city perspective, the capital, the -- the governmental systems, the -- the -- the citizens in -- in those parts of the country. I think people will see them as relatively backwards, relatively -- people who -- who care about their animals, but they have possibly difficulty seeing them in terms of -- of -- of citizens with the same -- same aspirations, the same perspectives. I think more -- more rural-based people, even -- the non-pastoralists will see it differently, I think, because they're so much closer to them and see also -- call it the rationale of -- of this -- of this way of living. So it -- it -- it -- it very much depends on what -- what -- but the further one is away from the pastoralists, the more difficult it becomes for those people understanding and -- and -- and understanding the logic, the rationale, and the -- and the, yeah, their overall system. And I think that's -- that's something that we see else -- elsewhere as well. I mean, this is not -- nothing special for Cameroon or for Africa. I mean, this is -- this is worldwide one sees this.

>> Sure. And I meant to ask -- go ahead.

>> I was going to say that's also why the International Year of Rangelands and Pastoralists is so important because pastoralists and rangelands bring so much value to the world, including in Cameroon, and so most of the -- the -- the protein is provided by pastoralists in the form of milk and meat. And so they're integrated in the market economy and they make an enormous economic contribution, but it's not valued and it's not recognized.

>> Is there a difference between pastoralism and nomadism?

>> I would say nomadism is an old -- old-fashioned term that we should abandon.

>> Okay.

>> As I just mentioned, pastoralists are not wandering. They are --

>> Right.

>> -- they're [inaudible] transhumance. That is, they go places that they've been before, that their animals are habituated. Of course, it doesn't mean that they always go to the same places, but nomad suggests wandering without clear -- clear goal, without any home. And, of course, there's lots of variation among pastoralists since there are some that are mobile more than others. But I suspect that even the most mobile pastoralists -- and so the drier the areas are -- so, for example, the Tuareg in the Sahara Desert, I suspect that they also have a sense of place and that they're not just randomly wandering about.

>> Right. No, that's a good distinction.

>> Also, one tells -- one uses much more the word mobile pastoralism or -- or sedentary, even if there are all sorts of obviously -- of -- of variations in it.

>> Sure. I'm curious whether -- -- whether you feel like what you're doing there is intended to help or mostly to understand? I feel like we, particularly in the United States or, you know, western civilization in general, often feel like we should do something, whatever "do something" means. And we also, though, tend to have, I guess, blinders. You mentioned that what you see depends partly on where you're looking from. We have -- we have a worldview that tends to see all poverty as primarily material poverty and that the way to fix it is through giving money or giving resources or alleviating what we perceive as being material poverty. But there's a really good book by a doctor who spent a lot of time in Africa years ago. The -- the book title is Margin, and he's describing the need in the West for people to have various kinds of margin -- you know, some mental space -- margin in how we spend our time, margin in how -- in how we use our money. Anyway, he had a good quote. He said that the Africans say that you Americans have all the watches, but we have all the time. And there's definitely a -- a part of me that sees that as something that's good and that we need to learn from and -- and move toward because we've definitely been racing in the opposite direction of having any kind of margin, including having any -- white space in our schedule. And I think that's something that pastoralism and pastoralists can model for us and offer to us, even if none of us are going to likely become cattle herders in Cameroon. But -- but we can slow down a bit. That's a long winded way of saying do you feel like your work is intended to help? And -- and what does "help" even mean?

>> Yeah. I think -- I think first the -- the understanding is crucial, and that's understanding not only of us, let's say, as -- as -- as foreign -- foreign visitors, foreign workers in -- in a country like Cameroon. Obviously, we've been working with -- with our national colleagues a lot. And so it's -- it's -- it's a common learning, and it's -- it's -- it's learning for us, but also learning for our colleagues. And what I was just earlier mentioning, it's the perspective of people from the city which increasingly is, obviously, the majority of the population of a country like Cameroon is -- is -- is so ignorant of, I would say, the -- the pastoral way of living. So, having this -- this understanding further spread and having international colleagues taking -- taking over the understanding and spreading that amongst their peers in the -- in the cities, in the universities, etc., in research institutions, in the -- in the -- at the decision making level, that -- that's -- that's extremely important. So I -- I think that's -- that's -- that's -- in the long run, that's -- that has been our major impact. On the other hand, especially, and related with the -- the -- the keeping a minimum of mobility or possibility for mobility that's often jeopardized by large-scale developments. And large-scale developments have often been -- been -- been -- been driven or been -- been introduced from outside, be it -- be it the damming or the embankments along a river that -- that stopped flooding in the Logone floodplain, large rice schemes with -- with funding from -- from -- from -- from -- from World Bank and other international organizations. So somehow the -- the understanding and -- and -- and awareness is crucial to stop or -- or -- or -- or reduce this kind of detrimental developments. So I --

>> Mm-hmm.

>> -- there's this mixture of feelings with it. Yes, one should not try to do a kind of micromanagement of micro interventions. I think that, especially in the pastoral world, has little -- little -- little influence and -- and -- and easily be -- be -- be counterproductive. On the other hand, having an eye on these large-scale developments, I think, definitely makes sense. And, there, I think we do carry responsibilities given -- given the -- the international character of these developments.

>> Sure. Thank you. Mark, anything to add to that?

>> Yeah. For me, it's learning and understanding and hopefully telling stories that help others to see it -- it differently, just as Paul explained. So I -- I'm still learning about pastoral systems and my -- as you -- as you mentioned, it's not that people have blinders, but they also use frames. They see the world through -- with a particular frame. As anthropologists, our goal is to translate points of view from -- from point of view 1 to point of view 2, meaning I try to communicate how pastoralists see the world and how they make decisions, what they think is important, and I communicate that to people who have some say about the parcel development, for example. And so it means challenging stereotypes about open access, first challenging stereotypes about Fulani pastoralists, and that's why I'm so happy to be part of this podcast because I can tell my stories about the importance of mobility and share more information about what it's like, how pastoralists think, and that it's not that different from ranchers in the American West and other parts of the world. So I think that's -- that's my main goal. And I'm an academic, and so most of my work is -- is doing research, helping understand how the -- helping -- or learning to -- to understand how these systems work and then teaching others about how these systems work and how to think -- how to communicate, different ways of being, and different ways of life.

>> Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. I'm resisting the temptation to dive into the similarities between ranching and pastoralism -- American ranching. But I think there's probably enough to talk about there that we should save that for a future interview.

>> Yeah, I --

>> I find this -- go ahead.

>> I was going to say I would love that. And I would bring my colleague, [inaudible], to the table and maybe some other folks as well that we've been working with because I think there's lots of similarities. And that the question is -- are there -- is there -- are there qualitative difference between the two or not? Or is it just in their mind?

>> Mm-hmm. Yeah. We should do that. You mentioned a little bit ago a -- a person who won the Nobel Peace Prize for some work on open property regime. I didn't quite catch the name. Can you say just a bit about that again?

>> Yeah. Eleanor Ostrom. She worked at Indiana University --

>> Okay.

>> -- and she wrote a great seminal book, Governing the Commons. She's been very active and so she used both case studies, theoretical work, as well as other -- other kinds of approaches to demonstrate that humans can avoid the tragedy of the commons and that is why she earned the Nobel Prize in Economics.

>> Great. Thank you. And my last question was going to be, are there any books or other articles that you would recommend if people want to learn more about this? I find this fascinating and I'm actively looking for other things that provide the historical perspective on pastoralism and open property regimes. Do you have any other recommendations besides Eleanor's book?

>> This is not a pastoralist book, but it's a book I just finished and I really enjoyed. And it's Call of the Reed Warbler by Charles Massy. And he's a pastoralist in Australia and he practices regenerative -- he studied and practiced regenerative agriculture. And he draws on lessons both from Indigenous people as well as pastoralists and ranchers across the world to offer a new way of raising sheep and other livestock and -- and taking care of the land. And it's well written. I highly recommend it. But it's not about pastoralists.

>> Right. Okay. And what is his name? Charles Massy, M-A-S-S-Y.

>> Great. Yeah. We'll include that in the -- in the show notes. My guests today were Paul Scholte and Mark Moritz. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time. This has been really enlightening for me and I think will be interesting to our listeners.

>> It was a pleasure.

>> Yeah, it was a pleasure.

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